[Unknown8]: 0:25

like as you know the seven day updates or whatever so we can go around and just do quick updates on ourselves

[Unknown9]: 0:32

what's up guys happy tuesday welcome back to another episode of eat train prosper today brian and myself are joined by our good friend mi mr jordan lipps i'm gonna have jordan introduce himself and then we are going to get into some updates before talking about all things hypertrophy with mister jordan

[Unknown10]: 0:50

what's going on guys thanks for having me first of all i am an online coach i think the three of us are do like a fairly similar thing but maybe with a little bit of some differences i'm an m certified nutritionist and certified through n one as an online coach but also some other certifications over the decade that we've been in this game do mostly actually exclusively online coaching at this point and recently also began a group coaching programs if you guys obviously listened to this podcast you guys know about paragon and evolve training something similar basically just trying to steal most of those people over to my group over the next couple of years and so similar to that with some small differences for sure so thanks for having me guys

[Unknown9]: 1:29

of course of course so um brian do you want to kick us off with our seven day updates

[Unknown8]: 1:34

yeah for sure so just real quick not to take the whole episode over but i did not end up having my mouth procedure that i talked about on the last episode i went in for the the thing and the thing on my mouth was dormant so they they couldn't operate on something they can't see so they basically sent me on my way and we're like you know when the thing comes back we'll schedule an appointment which you know to my to my dismay was like well i planned my de load week around this and like my whole life was going to work perfectly in line with this four day period of time off and now i have some random period of time that i'm going to have to go and do that so um so that is what it is i started my metabolic training this week we're going to talk a lot more about that probably in the next episode not waste a ton of time here and then just quickly on the h rv thing that we touched on last episode i've had some cool responses from people and the most obvious response from chante basically being like the reason your h rv is low on these random ones that it takes throughout the day is probably because your heart rate is higher specifically you know i'm walking around i'm working out i'm moving around the house whatever it is and heart rate variability measures the time between your heartbeats so of course if i'm sitting there under a cathartic state at forty two beats per minute my h rv is going to come across a lot higher than it would if i'm in the middle of a workout i'm at like one hundred thirty eight beats per minute just dying between sets of my metabolite cycle so so that was cool to hear and then for anyone that saw my story as well which will have been i guess a week earlier after this episode comes out but i've been focused on vo two max now too this is something else i'm intrigued by and the discrepancy or kind of what correlates more to improve vo two max whether it has to do with just being a smaller version of you like your body size is actually smaller and therefore you have less to work through to convert to usable oxygen versus somebody who actually just trains cardio but still remains like a relatively large human and so i've gotten a lot of cool inputs from that too over the course of the day and i look forward to of talking about all that stuff over the course of the next couple of episodes here

[Unknown9]: 3:54

jordan what about you

[Unknown8]: 3:54

yeah yeah

[Unknown10]: 3:55

yeah that's super interesting by the way as as we were like an hour ago it was like listening to the beginning of that podcast and so caught some of the hr v chat which maybe we'll dive into later but maybe not because

[Unknown8]: 4:04

yep

[Unknown10]: 4:04

you guys did that already for me not a whole lot we just bought this fancy new standing desk that i'm using right now just basically because i see that you guys are always podcasting standing up and i thought well that'd be cool so if you guys see me like floating down halfway through the podcast it's because i've probably never stood for you know an hour and a half or two hours however long this is going to go and so not a whole lot things are good we just kicked off a new mesa cycle in the group program so i know that a lot of the work that i do for that is front loaded in the mezza cycle vla form videos and asking questions and kind of plugging up holes that i might not have seen initially when i laid out the plan so that's a really fun time i'm watching like hundreds of form videos and for me that is like such a good indication of of whether or not i've done a good job teaching this movement to be a form video and via the cues that i'm giving in the forum video if i'm seeing like you know very we do a group zoom every week and so by at the end of a week of watching everybody do every movement across the whole week the whole micro cycle you know i've like ten

[Unknown8]: 5:02

great

[Unknown10]: 5:02

things that like basically everybody's doing and i know that you know i have to look inward and say they're doing this because i didn't explain this well enough and so that's really helped me grow it's like yeah i'm redoing foreign videos like every six weeks sometimes for certain things but they're always getting better and you know if we do go into the group coaching discussion it's definitely one of those things being able to be a good teacher whilst not actually there yourself that is both scalable from a business perspective but also super helpful for the end user and so we just kicked off today's day two of the meccan to see people grow from meso mezzo and in this week and a half so far like touching up a lot of the for videos and stuff that the program will have over the next five weeks

[Unknown8]: 5:46

yeah we're definitely gonna talk about group coaching stuff here since we both run in one of these programs and aaron you know has been able to view from the outside i think it'd make a really fun discussion on kind of some of the

[Unknown10]: 5:56

cook

[Unknown8]: 5:56

ways that we do things similarly probably differently too

[Unknown9]: 6:00

yeah so for me um not much update my back is feeling better but i wouldn't say it's fine by any means i've been kind of training gingerly around it and now this week starting to just push a little bit more to see what may affect it or not we'll see work in progress there and then uh i guess the big life update is my bali visa came in this morning so i will officially be heading to bali in the first so i guess second week of may for about six months super super excited about that and it will obviously provide some interesting wrinkles with us our podcast

[Unknown10]: 6:33

that's ute that's crazy

[Unknown9]: 6:37

recording times

[Unknown8]: 6:38

oh yeah

[Unknown9]: 6:40

but

[Unknown8]: 6:40

no totally i actually didn't even think about that aspect but i do have a question are you going to be in the same general area as the first time you were there

[Unknown9]: 6:47

yes

[Unknown8]: 6:49

okay cool

[Unknown9]: 6:50

yeah i mean we are and that's part of the reason why we're going back like we already know where the gyms are where the grocery store is like there's not we're already we've already been there and learned you know so it's an easier return um and we've been wanting to go back i mean we've been trying to go back to bali since the pandemic started so

[Unknown8]: 7:07

very cool

[Unknown10]: 7:08

very cool

[Unknown9]: 7:09

yep cool you guys wanna jump in into the

[Unknown8]: 7:14

yeah

[Unknown9]: 7:14

episode alright cool

[Unknown10]: 7:15

well i mean we can talk about your bali thing for a while well but we don't i

[Unknown9]: 7:17

no i'm sure i'm sure there'll be i have a million wrinkles as that unfolds so for

[Unknown10]: 7:17

don't want to go into that one so

[Unknown9]: 7:22

the listeners

[Unknown10]: 7:22

oh

[Unknown9]: 7:23

out there once we get into the later parts of may and june i'm sure there will be plenty of unforeseen circumstances that will be brought up on the podcast

[Unknown10]: 7:32

yeah

[Unknown9]: 7:33

so kind of just to start off journey can you just tell us a little bit more around yourself and what your what background kind of got you into where we find ourselves today

[Unknown10]: 7:44

sure i'm sure my story is not unlike many i started out as a personal trainer actually the original plan was to go to law school but after undergrad i took the elss and said to my family who had was fairly hell bent on me doing that that i'd love to take a year off i just was you know burnt out from school but like realistically hesitant about that decision in and of itself and went to go look work at my like local boutique gym which immediately upon like day one of doing i knew that this was what i wanted to do this being just something in this space where i had a little bit more of an entrepreneurial mindset a little bit more control over my schedule i got to work with people in a field that i really liked and so it was all of one week before in my brain i decided this is what i wanted to do and to my family's dismay that they were you know disappointed in that but i you know not that this is about proving family wrong but they're all very happy that i've made that decision ten

[Unknown8]: 8:33

hey

[Unknown10]: 8:33

years you know looking back and so it did that for a while the gym was actually a pretty interesting place it was a it was i was very fortunate i think some people start in like big box gm which has pros and cons but this was a boutique style gym which only did one on one personal training and it was a little weird it was also like a weight loss factory where we were like straight up starving people to death which was a dark dark place for me because i didn't know very much and so i did a lot of that stuff and a lot of like the pushing people to the nth degree and and you know like he quote yelling at people forcing like a lot of like low eqs style of coaching uh through people through like really low calorie diets and so it was a dark place but it did teach me some things obviously looking back after a while doing that a friend of mine and i had become fairly successful in that space and thought you know what's next for us is to open our own gym because we assume that you know as a personal trainer the next step upward in the industry is to own a gym and it took all about three days of doing that before i realized that that was not a step up that was like a lateral move and went from being somebody who was working on the floor for ten straight hours had a bunch of clients that i was working on stuff with to staying up late doing payroll and doing interviews for you know front desk people and maintenance guys and it turned into listen i'm not a manager i think that that was what it was it just was like really missing that working together with people and there was just one night of like doing payroll late where i was like this this blows you know like i had unanswered text from clients i wanted to get back to doing some programming you know i was taking a course at the time and i was like this is not where my passion is and so i believe it was maybe two months into the gym opening that i sold my half to my partner and decided that i was going to go i had been doing ay brid online coaching at the time just to kind of get my feet wet not to tangent too much on that but i really found that you know when i was working in person i was limited to my geography and just so happens that like you know i wasn't although i had a full book of clients they weren't necessarily a full book of people that were doing the sort of things that i was passionate about the time or were interested in stuff that i was passionate about the time so i was doing all this learning and i was like you know i'm really trying to integrate this into my in person business but it wasn't going so well and so one thing i loved about social media was advice that i had gotten from jordan syton i attribute to being a huge mentor at the time sat down with me in new york city for like several hours and we were talking about this he's like if you're feeling passionate about this and you post about it on social media a lot you will in theory attract others who are you passionate about that or care that you care about that and want that service from you and that's exactly what happened online coaching it's not that it boomed but maybe even my first ten clients i was feeling so ignited emotionally to go ahead and be like wow i'm using these skills you know i get to work with clients on stuff that i'm excited about that i've learned about and so pre pandemic not as a savvy business move purely maybe you could say a lucky business move i sold my portion of the brick and mortar in person gym and moved a hundred percent online and wow the total one hundred eighty i mean you guys i'm sure have a similar moving online at some point but for me that it was very very palpable very tangible aha moment of like totally one hundred percentage in my element for sure so that is my long arched story of how i ended up here today

[Unknown9]: 11:47

yeah it's really cool with that with at that timing you i wouldn't say you got lucky you saw you saw the writing and and what most important to you what's really interesting and i don't know if i've ever shared this before but i is actually never an in person trainer i went right from being another having another career to online space because really if i'm being completely truthful i had and still have bits of like just like social anxiety so it was easier for me to just remove that negative part of my personality and go online but yeah it's always an interesting thing that comes up there but that's really really cool where was where was the gym location like where is home because i know you're in austin now but where where was before

[Unknown10]: 12:28

it's in like bergen county new jersey so like if you live in new york city and take george washington bridge out it's like the first exit i live like six minutes from the bridge it's a very affluent area they're not shedding on very affluent areas but it was you know it was a lot of man this is tough because i think that no area can be generalized so far but i've i've come too deep in the sentence to turn around now wasn't it wasn't a lot of super high goal driven you know it was a lot of like hey i wanted to come in and exercise

[Unknown9]: 12:53

yes

[Unknown10]: 12:54

to check a box which by the way is freaking awesome and more people should be checking an exercise box i love that so much it just i was in the in the at the time very very excited to apply some of the things i was learning and at some point i felt i had outgrown that a little bit not that i was better than it but i had pursuits elsewhere that's all it was

[Unknown9]: 13:14

yeah makes perfect sense

[Unknown8]: 13:15

yep so i a hundred percent relate to the palpable of moving online because as soon as i was fully online we moved our family and our eight month old to costa rica for three months and realized that you can work from anywhere and that was just a beautiful thing so one real quick thing on your background that i'm just like personally curious about is it you uh have mentioned on your stories and stuff that that you had asthma and that you don't particularly like cardio and that you're not particularly good at it and there's just so much of that that resonates with me aside from the asthma the other two the other two mentions of cardio are are right and and you're speaking to my heart you know so so when when did the asthma become a thing because i know you are were a soccer player so like how did that impact that and then have you done anything to kind of improve cardio or tried to since then

[Unknown10]: 14:02

so it was it was at its worst it was allergy induced asthma and exercise induce asthma and so when i had the i spent many years allergic to everything that's outside so like trees grass mould you know different different leaves like literally like if it was a freshly mowed lawn and we went to go play soccer i was i was

[Unknown8]: 14:19

h

[Unknown10]: 14:19

inept i was immobile you know and so i got that taken care of with the years of shots and after that went away and it was just left with kind of the baseline asthma that wasn't exaggerated by anything too much it became good enough where i could play competitive sports played in college for a tiny bit of time but it was if i just said this a jenna the other day like it seemed that there was always a ceiling that i just that like from what i know now about adaptations and the way the body responds like i should have been able to progress at least maybe with a lower ceiling and maybe from a lower starting point because of potentially genetic lack of those adaptations but also potentially because asthma brings upon those ceilings but it just didn't seem to get to a point where i was ever on par with everyone else on the field and so the position that i play in soccer is a position that was either self selected because of this or because of other like skills and tactics it was like a center attacking midfield which like doesn't track back on defense very of very much and does a little bit of the creative work but then also doesn't do a lot of like the grunt work which is either self selected or you know whatever was you know however that happened but so i was able to kind of deal with that from an athletic perspective for a while but you know i know you guys are in metabolic phase right now brian or you're at a metabolic base i am

[Unknown8]: 15:33

yeah

[Unknown10]: 15:33

currently in a systemic de load and these are moments where you know you put on your story once you're like wow like this is a good sign i can be motivated by the fact that i need these adaptations because this is this shouldn't be so hard for me part of me feels that part of me hates it anyway you know like so the part of me is like yeah great i i totally do these adaptations and the part of me is like this is t

[Unknown8]: 15:53

right

[Unknown10]: 15:54

it's it's the combination of the excitement about working on something you're bad at with the lack of that being fun cause you're bad at it

[Unknown8]: 16:03

what i want to know is like whether i actually am going to see improvement from doing this or not because i also much like you have felt like i had this ceiling that was premature compared to the people around me and so exactly like your story with the midfielder that didn't go back on defense and soccer that was me and basketball like i just was the guy that ran the baseline and shot threes and like they didn't really expect me to play much defense and so and yeah so it's just like we go into these metabolic cycles and i am like for the moment i'm motivated being like yes maybe there is improvement that that i can garner from this you know and that maybe is also why i'm interested in the vo two max stuff because it's like will this metabolic phase in some capacity improve this really low vo two max marker that i have so anyway thank you for your contribution i was just curious on all that

[Unknown10]: 16:46

y the ironies i'm playing i'm playing soccer like three or four times a week i'm playing much more soccer now than i have in a decade because we moved to texas and my girlfriend's d fiance wow fancy she was a d one soccer player and it's something we love to do together so we're on a couple co ed teams which are like actually more competitive than my men's teams and you know i was thinking the same to the other day i was like you know i'm just curious why i'm not like in like tip top shape at this point you know and so recently i started actually pulling my inhaler out again and seeing if it made any difference you know how do you parse out am i just not do i not just not have these cardio a or is it in fact the asthma and so my thought was like well if i treat the asthma and i'm left with just my base level of conditioning what is that like and so ive been i've been taking the inhalant and it's been actually helping a lot and so it realized that maybe

[Unknown8]: 17:35

yes

[Unknown10]: 17:35

i'm not as inept as i thought maybe it is the asthma a little bit but from the metabolic cycle thing if we want attention on that like i'm very curious at how that manifests in a way that that i actually feel that is more than theoretical because the theoretical we could just list them off they exist it's very easy to say but you know am i going is it going to manifest itself in a way that is tangible is the question

[Unknown8]: 17:58

yes no exactly and then what what metrics would you use to determine whether this two or three week period right or even if it's up to five like call it a messo

[Unknown10]: 18:07

yes

[Unknown8]: 18:08

cycle or whatever two to five weeks how do we know that that small period of time had some positive impact

[Unknown10]: 18:12

but you're so you're talking about metrics which is that is absolutely how you should do it but the metrics are a proxy theory

[Unknown8]: 18:19

yeah

[Unknown10]: 18:20

i would want them to be a proxy for something that i actually feel and so it's a combination of the objective and the subjective where it's like is my h rv you know going up is my resting heart rate coming down my respiratory rate all that stuffer these things improving whatever metrics you might be using but like is that affecting something that i can feel like that stuff's cool

[Unknown8]: 18:38

right

[Unknown10]: 18:38

and that will keep me going because we want to celebrate micro progressions we want to know we are on the right path but is that actually am i going to return to my hypertrophy training with a tangible ability to tolerate volume better am i going to you know some

[Unknown8]: 18:49

yeah

[Unknown10]: 18:50

of these things am i going to find that i sleep better that i'm dealing with inflammation better like are those things i don't mind leaning on this knowledge that's happening in the background but i would also like to you know okay well what what is that how does that manifest in a way that i'm like a phenotype genotype thing where it's like actually changing something about my day to day or my training or whatever

[Unknown8]: 19:09

mm hm yeah i can get on board for sure with the idea that over three weeks the actual workout i'm doing is going to feel easier for a relatively the same output but again going to your point like coming back to the hypertrophy phase then like where are the kind of tangible things of like this really actually is aiding my hypertrophy forgiving like you do the metabolic phase great like maybe it doesn't work for you but it's not like you're now two steps backwards when you go back type perch you're just probably right where you left off

[Unknown10]: 19:47

truth agreed

[Unknown9]: 19:49

just adding a little tangent there for me one of the biggest interesting possibilities to explore their for for not necessarily myself but for client l is glucose uptake in insulin sensitivity right if you've been pushing a hypertrophy phase and your fasting blood glucose are starting to creep higher and higher could something like this with let's say maybe some something like a berberine whatever for a for a for a five week cycle or whatever

[Unknown10]: 20:14

she

[Unknown9]: 20:14

re reset that enough to where you're back down in the eighty seconds or something and now you have can ramp those carbs you know even higher and now extend that runway for this hypertrophy phase you know while keeping the the insulin sensitivity in your health as a priority as well

[Unknown8]: 20:30

i love that

[Unknown10]: 20:31

great

[Unknown8]: 20:34

sweet you wanna jump forward there aaron

[Unknown9]: 20:37

yeah let's do it so um i guess what's next let's talk about the running the group coaching program so one thing that's really really cool and what i think is unique with you guys specifically is one thing and and i've talked about this before but to me brian's always been like kind of ahead of the curve a little bit and i've always kind of viewed him as that but just with running these group coaching programs especially in the style that you guys do right and instead because there's a lot of people right running you know generally based programming you know it's a lot of like here's your workouts right but the way you guys are doing it it's very educational on top of it it follows a larger hierarchy and overarching structure of taking people through what sort i'm looking for like adaptations over a period of time which is really really cool so i just wanted to have a larger conversation around it because i know brian and i get a good amount of coaches listening to podcast too and i'm sure for one myself and also the coaches that listen to it it's things that they might want to explore to so i just wanted to have a really cool conversation from two guys that do it really really well and just hear your thoughts like why you use maybe this platform versus that platform and just how you want got it off the ground right and then how you continue to deliver right such a high quality product with such i mean to me from my standpoint you jordan you get like a lot of really really good engagement and stuff on it from something that a lot of people might at the surface view as like a negative like why would i want to join a group coaching thing as opposed to like a one on one or something like that so i just want to have a larger conversation around it with two guys that do it really really well

[Unknown10]: 22:12

yeah and and there's you hit the nail on the head of actually but is that probably somewhat from a monetary standpoint a downside which is actually trying to implement some sort of arc some sort of purpose some sort of longer you know some quote a periodization some more education i value those i see those all as value adds i see those all as things that i like to do but i just i i laugh with um my dad's not entirely like fresh off the boat he'll he won't listen to this but he like didn't grow up with money and so the idea that i could be making more money if i were to just make it more gen pop and that i'm implementing some layers of complexity i don't think what i do i don't think that it's complex i have plenty of rank beginners who come in there and do great but the fact that there is purposeful layers of complexity and education that go into it and thus i lose some people doing that it's just like unfathomable and so i think it is brian will test to the set like i will be not in a constant battle like it's something i worry about two four seven but it is a constant like recalibrate of how much variation are we going to put into this how much education do i want how much do i want to ask of the user how turnkey do i want this to be and am i okay with the outcome of those combinations of things especially when we we are bombarded with i'd say mostly people if i put my mine and brian's groups together i'd say most people who are doing it more simplistically and i don't mean that a negative con anyway i just mean that in like a gear towards a more or less experienced lifter where i'm bombarded with that and very constantly kind of having to recalibrate my thoughts on how much i want to ask of the user and so brian i'm sure you've experienced something similar

[Unknown8]: 23:53

yeah yeah one of the things that i think you do really well and i i try to do really well as well is speak with tempered language about things right one of the things you guys actually just discussed on the podcast that you did together on jordan's channel was using language that isn't so absolute

[Unknown10]: 24:09

sure

[Unknown8]: 24:10

and so i find s myself constantly in the group responding to questions when someone's like you know can i do this instead of this i'm like well here are the advantages to doing that here's why you might not want to do that you know and then there's some that are you know to the point where i'm like yeah i really would not advise that like as an example today we have in our metabolic phase we have the six sets of eight the incomplete rest method with leg curls and this this girl writes and goes hey i really like rds can i just do r dl instead of leg curls for this and i'm like ah well you know knee flexion and hip flexion and stretch overload and short overload and i'm like so no i would not exactly advise that so there's situations like that too and so how do you find yourself kind of handling you know similar issues and what type of language do you use

[Unknown10]: 25:03

very just a very simple like weighing of pros and cons where like these are the these are your list of best to worst options and this is where that option might fall and so if someone's okay i want to do an im r dl instead of this

[Unknown8]: 25:15

hey

[Unknown10]: 25:16

seated like crawler lying like curl you know i might say well okay fine but if you want to do these might be better options if you want to keep with the ir mttr dl maybe we don't do it im style because maybe just the axial loading is just going to be brutal for im seems insane to me

[Unknown8]: 25:31

yeah

[Unknown10]: 25:32

and so just just to you know i think one of the effects cass has happen coach cass had me through this whole process of going through it all in one courses it's just like

[Unknown8]: 25:41

really

[Unknown10]: 25:42

understanding that there's a and lane norton too this understanding compared to what and where on the hierarchy is this and how much more or less important is this yes it's important to rank and aaron and i had i loved our chat on this we where it's important to rank things from better or worse compared to the alternatives totally that's step one though step two is how far are those things apart you know because y you know the you know certain things could be better and worse than others but that is a binary yes or no statement that is not a relative statement that tells me where how far away these things are and so a lot of times a lot of questions about swaps iss totally a big one that i get i don't want to do this can i do this and it's like i don't want to do uh you know a barbell front squat could i do a you know glut dominant low bar squat and it's like okay you know here's where we're moving kind of away from what the point was here's the ways that maybe we can bridge that gap and get you closer to what i meant for this and then there's sometimes i find myself saying like at the end of of one of these kind of questions in the group where it's like you know you could also just tell me to off and just do this anyway and i don't think it would be the end of the world but just know that in this context you have deviated from what the point was and it's not the end of the world but these options might be a little bit closer to what we meant and so i think it's important to put things in better and worse order but also

[Unknown8]: 26:55

mm hm

[Unknown10]: 26:55

discuss how far away certain things are from what might be you know near optimal um but i've really enjoyed that frankly that discussion with the group and having people you know what i really want in this whole just when it's whether it's one one coaching or group coaching is just want to cultivate a group of more informed consumers people who are a little bit savvy with the way they think about things and so if i can just get you to understand where i'm coming from from a here's how i want you to look at this yes the barbell front squat and the low ba back squad are both squats but just this is how far we've deviated from what the point was here's the consequences of that which is not that much you know it's at the end of the world yet it's quite different but i want people to start to think about these trade offs the better or worse also how far away are we deviating from what's optimal what are the consequences of those choices and am i okay with those consequences and if i am then i'm super happy for you and that's awesome

[Unknown8]: 27:46

yep air in any thoughts

[Unknown9]: 27:49

yeah i mean it's a really good way to put it and it's something and this this leads back to the conversation that you and i had jordan and it's like in like the is it are we starting with the beginning of the sentence or the end of the sense right so i had a client this literally happened last night asking me because i was like hey he's he's a he's a what i call a unicorn problem right he's trying to put on weight once to add muscle mass incredibly active job he's already lean already has a i'm like we just we're going to have to pump so much carbohydrates into you we just need to make things simpler so it was like i want like seventy five gramsh hydrate type thing gate rate and he was like well you know can i do power aid and i was like for all intents and purposes like yes you can do power aid technically right power aid is a high fructose corn syrup v is g rate is a to table sugar rate so i'm like does it matter not really but am i going to give you like the proper answer just because it's i think it's important to not

[Unknown8]: 28:47

yeah

[Unknown9]: 28:48

because people miss these things right and and with that it's like what you were saying like where are you on on your spectrum and what are the consequences right if you're super green to training right is it going to make a difference probably not but if you're someone who has like long livers and maybe some lower back issues yeah that that low bar back swat is probably going to have more of a consequence or a trade off as opposed to that type of thing so it's like understanding that tr how far you might find yourself on it in the and being able to like as a coach right or or a leader in educator position being able to have that conversation and have people understand where they are and it's important it's it's really really important in my opinion personal

[Unknown8]: 29:33

yep i love that context

[Unknown10]: 29:34

well

[Unknown8]: 29:35

aaron that's great do you have anything to add to that jordan before i ask something else

[Unknown10]: 29:38

i was no that's good i i just i just wanted to kind of curtail that with just like i i think that there's i know that aaron does one on one not a group right

[Unknown9]: 29:48

it's

[Unknown10]: 29:48

mostly

[Unknown9]: 29:49

it's i'm having it's an interesting container let's put it that way

[Unknown10]: 29:54

okay well brian's certainly doing a bit more of the group g and regardless of whatever you guys are doing i'm finding that i asked myself a question the other day of would i enjoy either as much as doing both you know and so i have a crop of one on one that i've shrunk down to make room in my life for the group and i get a chance to go deep and have those like higher eq like a bit more like i posted this morning about something that really like hits home for me from a one on one perspective but when i read that it doesn't apply at all necessarily to the group to the group coach me as much because i'm not going as deep with each individual there but i just feel like from a group coaching perspective and from a one one coaching perspective i might appreciate the other one more because the other one exists and so i get a chance to go deep when there's opportunities to go deep with a one hundred one client i get the chance to see how i can streamline something and you know get more out of less with a group in terms of how much education or queuing i'm doing for certain things so it's a nice balance of both challenging myself to grow as a coach but also trying to be a better problem solver

[Unknown8]: 30:54

yeah absolutely the the thing you said about the messages kind of being different whether you're talking to like a one on one client or or a group program i notice that all the time and it even kind of overflows into the way i program an individual versus a group like an individual doesn't really have like a template that's followed it's kind of a feedback driven system of tell me what's going on fill out this check in form let's have a discussion and then we'll figure out your next week of training whereas the group program you know you're just trying to do what's best for the most people possible so yeah i i f fully relate to that for sure so cardio we get this all the time in our group programs where you know we don't program cardio in the physique program we have now we have a hybrid program that does include cardio because we've got this question so much so it's of course the easy answer is it's just an opportunity cost you a coach i want to add in three running sessions on top of your four weight sessions like what's your response to that the person that wants to do three sessions on top of four and now they're training seven days a week or something along those lines

[Unknown10]: 31:55

my gut when you said that was the the magnitude of what you want to implement on top of my programming the higher that magnitude like the

[Unknown8]: 32:01

about

[Unknown10]: 32:01

greater the thing that you want to add in the more like i would seek out an a personal one on one coach if someone's like hey i want to add in i want to make i want to get twelve thousand steps a day and i'm not going to do any running but is it okay if i up my activity that much yes you're good to go you're fine but if i'm like hey i want to also do you know three and so initially it's like how big of a again it it's a matter of that that's not a scalable approach for me to be dealing with and i know you know that it wasn't the type of questions but that's not a scalable approach for me to be like yeah here's exactly how you modify this my program

[Unknown8]: 32:41

right

[Unknown10]: 32:42

but you know if there's something really easy of like me telling that person hey why don't you just run it three days a week cyclically and do like a week one is day one two three week two is day four one two and then you can fit this on top of that like i might give an answer like that and then curtail it with hey if you want something more specific this is where it blurs that line of like maybe go to an online coach or a one hundred one coach that you can really i mean you're asking you're asking for a more complex programming across the week and so the more complex the more specific and individualized something is the more i'd recommend going like and finding somebody to work one on one with

[Unknown8]: 33:14

yeah for sure i think ultimately it becomes like okay you're programming four days a week of strength training so you are saying this is kind of the amount of work or volume or fatigue that we're going to do this week so when someone comes in and says i'm going to add x number of running sessions on top of your program then i think my first response is always to be like okay where can we pull back somewhere else which is kind of what you said like rolling sessions over to the next week that type thing so yeah fully on board with you on that one

[Unknown10]: 33:42

how would you how would you answer if somebody's like let's say they want to add one cross fit session in per week and what like what's it and it has to be somewhat generalized the answer of course where it's like how do i know i'm doing too much is kind of that question of like how do i know when i've put when i shoved too much on top of our group here that you know what are the signs and symptoms i know that that's could be a broad spectrum but like what might be a general answer that you you would sell that person

[Unknown8]: 34:07

so the first thing i usually do is talk about the blurring of diagnostics and i talk a little bit about kind of how yes this is a general program what i'm trying to do is assign a general amount of volume that i think is going to work for the most people possible but what you have to understand is that yes you might be on one of those outliers like say you're even the person that's on the lower side and you're like i could handle more volume now well now you do this cross fit class so maybe you're making up the volume that you could do but how do we assign that volume to anything so then you go into your next week of training and maybe you're not making progress or a few weeks later you're not making progress it's not as easy of a an equation for us to be like okay well we have fourteen sets of this muscle group and sixteen sets of that one in twelve here it's more like well we had twelve fourteen and sixteen but now we have hang cleaning jerks and toes to bar and push ups and box jumps so who the knows how much volume we actually have to work with so the explanation of kind of the diagnostic piece is something that i usually talk about but uh but there are also of course a number of different ways that you can approach that

[Unknown10]: 35:17

yeah i think that there's an element of like the big the big overarching umbrella here is like if you add something that now with that volume thrown into your like total bucket of stress that you can handle if by adding that you are no longer able to progress at the rate that it's either that you've being accustomed to because you've been doing this for several mess cycles or that i've estimated that you'll be able to progress or if you're not progressing at all or you're regressing then i think that's a very clear sign that that glass has overflowed and that you have been trying to shovel too much shit in there and there's

[Unknown8]: 35:47

this

[Unknown10]: 35:48

your body's fighting really really hard just to recover and doesn't have a lot of these excess resources to actually adapt and improve and so this lack of actual progress is really good but you's week one and two you do progress and you know that glass i use that like bucket analogy that buckets filling up maybe it's not full just yet but by week three and four you're starting to see those stagnation and of those regressions where normally maybe you wouldn't have seen that till we five and six and so

[Unknown8]: 36:12

yep

[Unknown10]: 36:12

i do think it's an indication of like if you've been doing a program for a while by itself then you add something and you see your performance change either immediately or at some point across the mesa cycle where you're unable to progress if you progress slower progressing is progressing i'd still be super happy with that but if you are not progressing where you would have been or if the expectation of the program is that you would then that would at least give me like a skeptical eyebrow of like you know i'm

[Unknown8]: 36:36

yeah

[Unknown10]: 36:37

not sure necessarily if you can handle all this

[Unknown8]: 36:39

yeah you've talked before about the idea of getting small wins week to week and i feel like that's a message that's super important just across the board i mean i find it super important for myself to the point that i tend to use micro loading or as you and i discussed jordan increasing partial reps as a way to just say like hey i did more than last time you know so i think that when it comes to people in our group programs like if they're just doing the same thing week after week and not seeing improvement and getting these small wins then than you and i have a problem so

[Unknown10]: 37:10

true

[Unknown8]: 37:12

cool anything else sad on that one aaron

[Unknown9]: 37:14

um to take it back to the cardio thing what ill will generally do is i will ask a couple more questions why right when someone's like oh well i started running this week i'm like why and

[Unknown8]: 37:23

ten

[Unknown9]: 37:24

are you actually interested in running or do you think it's going to further facilitate some adaptation that you want and that's generally what they think they're oh i'm gonna have fat loss by adding running i'm like if you want fat loss we're just gonna sleep an extra hour and we're gonna go on some walks and one you

[Unknown8]: 37:37

hey

[Unknown9]: 37:38

get to sleep more right you're gonna the rest of your day is gonna feel better and you don't have to add something that you don't even want to do for some like fallacy thought that you think it's going to further facilitate what you want from an adaptation standpoint so for anyone listening out there like just make sure you understand the reason why you're adding something right so i had another example i had a client who was training like five days a week and then he was kickboxing four days a week and i'm like bro no why are we kickboxing and you like oh well it's it's an hour i get to sp with my daughter i okay this is fantastic we're going to keep the kick boxing in we're going to reduce training you know because it's a but like we we don't need both but one serves a different purpose than like training right it's a bonding type thing with his daughter of course we're going to keep that in let's pull back the training then so really just understanding what is the real reason someone wants to add this additional volume on top or something like that and many times you will find it's it's um like obfuscate under some other reasoning or something like that

[Unknown10]: 38:36

definitely

[Unknown8]: 38:36

when optimality when optimal meets practical right

[Unknown9]: 38:40

exactly

[Unknown10]: 38:40

yeah exactly right now that's a that's such a good point i mean it's

[Unknown8]: 38:43

yeah

[Unknown10]: 38:43

not necessarily what you do it's the intent with which you do it it's like asking not necessarily what you do it's the intent with which you do it it's like asking why somebody is doing something why somebody is doing something it tells you a lot about where you'll go from that it's not just what you want to do it's tell me why you want to do that opens up a that opens up me as the coach maybe providing some alternative perspectives of ways you might be able to get what you say you want i mean if you came to me because you want to know the best route to things and then kind of tell me why you're thinking certain things so that maybe i can provide some different perspective i mean it happens literally all the time it's like you sh should i should i add some hit cardio and you're like well all right well do why do you do you like hit or don no i mean like i want to boot gill fat walls going i'm like okay well you know so that's like a really nice like you said the beginning of the conversation is like kind of just diving into the y behind things help provide a little bit more context

[Unknown9]: 39:30

definitely um there was one other thing that i wanted to add or ask but i cannot remember it so i guess brian are you ready to move on

[Unknown8]: 39:40

yeah yeah yeah you wanna go with the next topic

[Unknown9]: 39:42

yeah so this is one thing that i know brian has done which was really really cool and you are in the process of and really just building a badass home gym and one thing that i kind of wanted to talk about is going into like equipment selection and let me kind of back up and say why so obviously with the pandemic right had this huge boom of the the home gym i don't even want to call it a movement but just d desire right because you couldn't go anywhere that being said when people are building a home gym or a garage jim the default at least generally here in the states is going to be the the row route i get the squat rack the bar the bumpers you know maybe a rower something like that in something that i will like challenge a lot of my client tell who have come from that aspect is like what is your what is your desired outcome do you want to do crossfit and they're like no i just want to like look good and you know keep as much muscle mass as i can into this next stage of my life so i'm like then let's change the model a little bit around the type of equipment we're buying right maybe we buy a functional trainer instead of like a fif seven thousand dollar squat rack or something like that or what are some different things so i just want to have that conversation with you as you are in this process like what is what are your big kind of pillars of equipment selection and what is what are your thoughts going into this

[Unknown10]: 40:58

yeah you hit the now on the head the first question is what's the goal you know i think if someone's like hey i want to scot bench deadlift i want to cross ffts you need dumbbells you need a bench you need a row you need to pull up bar you know all that stuff and so and then p yes you might need that stuff even if you don't necessarily want to do cross but's open this first discussion of like what do i want to do and so i think goals is the first like bucket to kind of fill up to understand what your goal is and i think let's say you had a goal of crossfit or strength i just want to get stronger at the squat bench deadlift is something that maybe there's an emotional tie to that maybe that's just something they like doing and so for those i think we go the row route first we get dumbbell barbell plates rack all that good stuff free weights quote unquote is where i would go first but if somebody's like my best goal is i are the first two huge purchases like enough enough free weight to challenge compound movements lower body pressing lower body hinging upper body pressing and rowing enough weight to do that if you can do that via dumbbells and barb you very likely can i think that that's a really great place to go i think you cannot so my thought was we think we have to look at things like goals price space the multi functionality or lack thereof of certain pieces so what's the added functionality per square footage usage per price usage and then not only just the multi functionality but like how good are the exercises that you get out of this thing some people like look i can do the all these like fun funky things it's like well what if i just you know i think brian and i have talked offline about getting like like a hammer strength row just so that we can do the step back hammer strength row because it is like the most practical way to get a

[Unknown8]: 42:49

yeah

[Unknown10]: 42:49

relatively like lengthened overload movement for the lat theas lombard la whatever and you know that's not a very functional machine i mean when i say function i mean it doesn't have multi functions it is that you can do four exercises off the top of my head that are like reasonably good takes up a huge amount of space and so you might rank that fairly low but you might actually consider it because of how good the exercise is that you are gaining and so stuff like that has definitely crossed my mind and so where i went is we don't have a big i think it's a twelve by twelve space which is not a huge space and so it was just room enough for that we went the rogue route just because i do think that between my fiance and i there is enough that we would want to do with free weights as much as i would you know gun to head would have i would take a functional trainer over the the dumbbells and barbells just from my goals which would kind of align a little bit more into the hypertrophy joint health its like not that i i said joint health joint health twice is if people are going to like snap their knees and shoulders because they're doing free weight movements of course not but i'd say that cables on average are probably slightly more joint friendly and so i would you know if it was one or the other i probably would have went with the functional trainer route and then i think you could get a lot away away with a lot with a functional trainer and some heavy dumbbells and

[Unknown8]: 44:02

yeah

[Unknown10]: 44:02

probably that could be about it but when the rog route and the functional trainer route you know you can't decide you know go with both and after that i mean i've watched brian's home jim girl he's got a freaking pendulum he's got the chess supported tea bar you know he's got a lot of good stuff in there like accenture ham curl so i've kind of poked around and asked him about that sort of stuff but if we were really ranking stuff i'd say your first decision is am i going to go to rogue route and go really free weight heavy am i going to go functional trainer cable stack because i think that they come out to you can get you can get a reasonable functional trainer by the way i don't know

[Unknown8]: 44:36

right

[Unknown10]: 44:36

what you guys have brian in terms of people in the group and i have a lot of people that are at home with like a two thousand dollar cable setup which relatively speaking is cheap but absolute terms is still quite a bit but you know my my prime you know rack was like turned out to be like ten thousand so if you're getting like a real good functional trainer for like two thousand that

[Unknown8]: 44:54

yeah

[Unknown10]: 44:55

can be really really great and so i think the free weight and functional training would be the first two things that i would look at and obviously price considering but those would be by far the first two things and i would see everything else as somewhat of a luxury um and

[Unknown8]: 45:07

yeah

[Unknown10]: 45:07

things that i would then pick up over time

[Unknown8]: 45:10

yeah the the functional trainer i think rep fitness makes one for

[Unknown10]: 45:14

yes

[Unknown8]: 45:15

like under two grand and i've had a couple girls write me and talk about that one and how great it is when i was looking at mine i actually didn't look at that model for two reasons one because the weight stack didn't go heavy enough

[Unknown10]: 45:28

i knew you're gonna say that yeah

[Unknown8]: 45:30

and second because i heard that it was unstable at heavy weights but when you're a female that doesn't need more than a hundred pounds per stack like that thing is money like

[Unknown10]: 45:39

what

[Unknown8]: 45:39

i would advise any girl out there that wants a dual cable system to go check that rep fitness went out because i think it's like eighteen hundred bucks

[Unknown10]: 45:44

and and that one's and that one is that that one is so that's like one it seems like from where i'm sitting at that was like one of the first to break into that price point but there are a lot of competitors that are coming down to that price point that are like making just carbon copies of that the rep

[Unknown8]: 45:58

yes

[Unknown10]: 45:59

fitness one for like again for like a one nine something like that so it's it's you can get and again like you said if you're not trying to move two hundred two fifty per stack then it's awesome and i've advised anybody out

[Unknown8]: 46:10

yeah

[Unknown10]: 46:10

there who's looking to spend that much ish that that is the route i would go a hundred percent

[Unknown9]: 46:16

quick question for you jordan what functional trainer did you go with because i think we're we're using these terms kind of a little bit interchangeably and i just wanted to see what

[Unknown10]: 46:24

yeah i didn't actually go with the prime functional trainer with the

[Unknown8]: 46:25

prodigy rack right

[Unknown10]: 46:27

moving arms if we're going to go in depth on that process

[Unknown8]: 46:28

uh okay

[Unknown10]: 46:32

the rogue stuff came out to like ten thousand all no no not true to like five to like six or seven thousand and then the i wanted to go with something prime fitness i just trust the quality of the brand and i've used it many many times and so that was something i just like maybe arbitrarily just had my heart set on and so their options were they have the selectors rack which is a which duels as a squat rack and a functional trainer in the sense of it has a dual cable that can be modified from top to bottom but it doesn't have the moving arms they also have the functional trainer which is more like the people see like the life fitness one that's in a lot of gyms with like the moving arms that go horizontal and up and down and so they also have that option which we used at the n one seven are all three of us and that is an amazing piece and probably from a cable perspective that one's better than the cable that i went with but i went with the selector rack because it saved me money on buying a squat rack and although barbell back squatting is probably not something

[Unknown9]: 47:30

so

[Unknown10]: 47:30

i'm gonna do maybe ever again seriously not just a personal personal choice i just think having that rack capacity even if i use it for filming form videos for instructional purposes you know to rack up my r dl so i don't have to pick it up from the ground or set up a barbell for a glut bridge or whatever the fact may be that it had more this is where like spending an extra three thousand got me a lot more functionality it has has a lap pull down like a upper back pull down set up

[Unknown8]: 47:57

yeah

[Unknown10]: 47:57

from a top down has like a pull up bar has a seated row attachment where you can put your feet up and so the functional trainer was like yeah the moving arms are great and i can think of at least three to six exercises well that will be so clutch but the the stuff that i was getting extra by having the actual squad rack with the selector eyed rack i think it's a prodigy rack is actually the

[Unknown8]: 48:17

yeah

[Unknown10]: 48:17

name that was called and so all in i was thinking you know i don't know how many of you guys know lindsey parker so

[Unknown8]: 48:23

yeah

[Unknown10]: 48:23

lifting lindsay so she was my inspiration for that her home gym is amazing and she had said if you're gonna go with the functional trainer that has the moving arms you would also probably want to buy a single stack a single top down cable so that you could have that upper back pull down where you really know if you're thinking of like a traditionall down i'm going to call it an upper back pull down just out of like annoying semantics but being able to have that pad on your legs that

[Unknown8]: 48:46

yeah

[Unknown10]: 48:46

inhibits you being pulled up is like you could recreate a vertical pull on the functional trainer but you know once you get strong per pound of body weight you're going to need to be held out down in some way and so i just thought okay i'm going to lean a little bit in this direction the annoying part is we just started talking about potentially moving out of this place and my my prodigy rack i thought about what it would take to move and i was like that's gonna be a nightmare to break back down and move but i thought you know i'll get a year out of it and it'll be a great year of training and i'll be so happy and now i think we're gonna leave in like seven months and i'm thinking like it's going to be here in one month so that's six months of use i'm like man i might keep this thing in the fu box and not put it together like i just thought this morning

[Unknown8]: 49:28

yeah

[Unknown10]: 49:29

literally this morning i might put this i might leave this thing in the box and not unpack it because if i unpack it put it together and i have like five months of training before we move and i have to break this down i'm not bob the builder i'm not super handy if this thing's going up it's going up and we are um moving it as one piece off i can tie it down to the top of something and you know it just it just kind of struck me i was like alright let me maybe maybe consider what i'm gonna do with that but yeah that was a big long ramp

[Unknown8]: 49:52

dude you're you're talking the things at nightmares to me man like literally you know we just spent five weeks in san diego and all the questions were like so are you moving back you know like are you coming back i'm like dude i have a home gym i can't move the home gym like look at that thing you know i mean i wouldn't even like it's in the basement it's not even

[Unknown10]: 50:06

what the am i gonna do at the home gym yeah

[Unknown8]: 50:09

like it's in the garage and i can get the stuff out you know it's like if you're buying my house you're getting the home gym

[Unknown10]: 50:14

so

[Unknown8]: 50:14

that's just like staying you know so so i could definitely relate to that but um on the point of the prodigy rack man like having the pull down where the knees are secured is one of my two only things that i feel like i'm missing right now in my home gym and so i just bought a new forty five degree hyper extension so i have my calves secured where i have a old shitty one that didn't have that but i feel like i'm missing that the the the upper back pull down thing with the knees secured and then a uh converging chess machine of some sort and the converging chess machine is just never going to happen unless i like get rid of the pendulum or something like that so so that just kind of is what it is but i'm like literally racking my brain trying to figure out ways that i can manufacture some sort of of knee supported pull down there so i'll keep fighting the good fight for that one and just be jealous that you have that

[Unknown10]: 51:05

yeah good luck with that yeah its out work

[Unknown9]: 51:06

yeah the reason i asked there is when i was in scotts sale i'd work out with jeremiah bear in in his

[Unknown10]: 51:12

i am

[Unknown9]: 51:12

gym and he has that prime rack and i was i was like blown away by it it is every i mean it's everything you i mean it's obviously not everything but like eighty percent of your upper body training that you could do in a gym in a in a commercial gym you can do at home on that thing and i was like this is this is awesome see

[Unknown8]: 51:31

yeah

[Unknown9]: 51:31

that's what i was asking but yeah thing is pretty cool

[Unknown10]: 51:32

that's funny because you t i was actually the literal person that i spoke to lindsay as has well but jeremiah is the person who talked me into i have exactly what he has he got the one through one hundred rogue dumbbells and then the selectors rack and those were the first two things he bought and he talked me one hundred percentage into that exact

[Unknown8]: 51:47

yeah

[Unknown10]: 51:47

purchase rogue ironically sent me it's funny they really messed up with shipping it was embarrassing they sent half the stuff and then like six weeks later and the other half of stuff because they forgot it but they sent me an extra one through fifty dumbbell so i have

[Unknown8]: 52:00

oh

[Unknown10]: 52:01

like a you know and that's like i'm gonna do like i want to do like a good deed give away to like somebody in texas who like wants to build out their home gym but but jared it's funny because jeremiah's was my inspiration i saw him in his garage my setup is a similar space to his and so he's he's got the c beechat press which is epic

[Unknown9]: 52:17

oh yeah yeah we went we went ham on that thing oh yeah yeah we went we went ham on that thing

[Unknown8]: 52:17

i was just gonna say that yep

[Unknown10]: 52:19

thing is oh it's beautiful it's so beautiful it's amazing and so i got the heck bar the prime he bar' talked about

[Unknown8]: 52:26

nice

[Unknown10]: 52:27

and yeah that syb squat i mean if we look at like dream if we're talking like dream home gym stuff we're we're looking at like the atlantis hack and seated hack combo i love your brian your leg extension seated ham curl that's like a must i think knee flexion extension is the one thing that like we program in the group all the time and it's a lot of band work and if you have a cable stack we do cable like a nef extension if we have bands then we're doing bands and for whatever it's worth man that to me is that it works we make it work man we we have had some really hellacious you know band nef flexion extension work which i'm very proud of frankly but but that that machine goes a long way if legs is something that's really of priority to you

[Unknown8]: 53:11

yeah i i can indefinitely testify to that like i the difference between going from like bands to cables and then to the actual machine itself are all like three progressive levels right like i used to have a single stack stack cable before you and i were even connected i had a single stack and so i had cuffs and i would get these long daisy chains and i would put one cuff on each thigh and i would do my leg curls and leg extensions that way and it was just like it was at the time i was like man i'm getting such a good stimulus from this this is amazing you know and then my other machine arrived and i was like oh yeah

[Unknown10]: 53:47

yeah yeah agree yes

[Unknown8]: 53:49

but it is cool that we can be creative and use those types of hacks and like i noticed like ruth has that hack that she uses where the leg extension is both a dumbbell and a band so i think that combining things like that she does the same thing i think with leg curls so that you get rid of what would be such a lengthened overload movement in each one of those if you just had the dumbbell and then you add the band and you can kind of even out that resistance curve a little bit so with all this ingenuity like there's definitely like pretty solid home

[Unknown10]: 54:15

if with your feet if your feet are larger than size two you ain't fit in that

[Unknown8]: 54:15

based options for that

[Unknown10]: 54:19

dumb bell on your feet i've tried that be a billion times and like

[Unknown8]: 54:23

okay

[Unknown10]: 54:23

every time i put it on i'm like i i'm like ruth you make this look so good i'm like are your feet do you have like alpha feet like there's just no way that i just can't fit the dumb belt i can't fit both and i don't have

[Unknown8]: 54:33

interesting

[Unknown10]: 54:33

big feet but so so i have that variation in my group and it says like if you're wondering why your feet don't fit in in the middle of the like where the bar is for the dumbbell and you're not able to balance it like you're not alone like i i don't know

[Unknown8]: 54:43

yeah

[Unknown10]: 54:44

how people do this either but if you

[Unknown8]: 54:45

huh

[Unknown10]: 54:45

like it that's one of the variations that we use too so totally

[Unknown8]: 54:48

maybe like the monkey feet with a band would be like aa nice compromise too

[Unknown10]: 54:50

i like the muki too i thought about the monkeys me being a mandatory purchase literally just for standing hand curls and leg extensions like

[Unknown8]: 54:57

yeah

[Unknown10]: 54:58

so i don't hate the monkey feet i think i think i'll put it somewhere in the optional things that people could buy if they really wanted to optimize that might be something in the future too i used to that that falls into the category of something it doesn't have a lot of uses to i think maybe you could do some

[Unknown8]: 55:23

right yeah yeah for sure for sure i guess the one thing you'd be missing in your in your home gym if you go with like my number two number one and two would also be the dumbbells one to one hundred and like a prodigy rack or some sort of functional trainer right and then even in my own training right now i literally don't use a barbell except for rds i don't think i've used a barbell except for rds in in many a months now and so i i'm not like on the team of hey you need a bar bell for sure if your goal is hypertrophy but leg machines would be like the one thing you're lacking because you kind of scoffed at the high bar pause back squat which which i agree like when you have the option of a pendulum or a leg press or a hack squat versus hey i'll elevate my feel heels put a bar on my back and you know really get deep knee flexion here it's just not the same so um so do you have any plans potentially of getting like maybe top of the list would be like the cast hack squat which is obviously super dope or something else along the lines

[Unknown10]: 56:24

the truth truthfully it depends on the proximity of a gym that has that stuff so right now we are you know there's a huge house of bees right outside my window anyway there's a gym that's like the allegedly like the texas like s southern mecca of body building it's called house of gaines appropriately named i suppose

[Unknown8]: 56:44

yeah

[Unknown10]: 56:45

and it's like super there's a lot of competitors there's like a posing room long story short though they have a sea of freaking sea of equipment and so there's like two pendulums there's three amazing hacks they have a unilateral hip press like not the one that used at n one but it's

[Unknown8]: 57:01

the rogers yeah okay

[Unknown10]: 57:01

like a real old one but it's still amazing they have a bilateral hip press they have a bunch of glut drives and then they're really like up to snuff on the equipment and so that's really like it's like an eight minute drive for me so i told jen i was like if we can if we can just

[Unknown8]: 57:13

i don't think

[Unknown10]: 57:13

make that a day where we go and we hack or we

[Unknown8]: 57:15

yeah

[Unknown10]: 57:15

pendulum them and we leg extension and we use some of these machines then we can bridge that gap very easily but i think if know we're gonna be brian's in daddy life i mean we're gonna be that's something that is in our future in the next year maybe year or two and so that will be you know i want to be as as home base as possible and so i think that a leg extension ham curl would come first i would take the back squat and i would make that a length i would sooner integrate that and get the leg extension hand curl to kind of offset the ne flexion extension and i would live with that i would live with split squats and barbel squats

[Unknown8]: 57:52

yeah that's a good point

[Unknown10]: 57:54

but long term that means the atlant i mean la lindsay just got it has not really used it i think a to because it's been cold in utah but i think she's going to start using it so you probably see that on her instagram soon it's amazing

[Unknown8]: 58:03

yep i saw it when she first got it and she was like super amped on unwrapping it

[Unknown10]: 58:07

it wasn't even a rack it wasn't even un wrapped she was in there they like doing

[Unknown8]: 58:08

and then doing her first set and

[Unknown10]: 58:10

wraps i'm like i

[Unknown8]: 58:11

i know

[Unknown10]: 58:11

don't think it's finish putting together yeah yeah yeah

[Unknown8]: 58:13

you know amazing amazing

[Unknown9]: 58:15

to wrap up this part of the conversation i actually just this question yesterday from a client so i was like this is perfect with with the guys coming on the podcast so he said i currently have a squat rack in my home gym if you had to pick a leg press or a pendulum squat which would you pick i'm considering adding one or the other

[Unknown10]: 58:33

yeah it's a really tough question it is a tough question so can come down to i guess what you care about more the exercises that you gain you know if we had to be super nit picky and we'd look at the pendulum and say this is probably the best piece of equipment that we have for lengthening the quads biasing the quads and the lower body pressing movement it would have to be the the most quad biased on the spectrum and to a very very high degree of deflection a lot of quad lengthening and if we look at okay that's fine okay but i probably only get that you know you can make a pendulum and more glut biased but it is less versatile but you get probably the quote best if we look at contextually what best means meaning you know most high degree of stability lengthening of the quad that's probably the best thing that there is and so you get the best but you only get one versus the like press you might actually get you might you could argue that a glue dominant like press is up there with the best glued exercise you could do just from a such a high degree of stability such amazing leverages and you get multiple exercises you can do a doctor like press you could do a quad variation like press but the downside you could do caf rass if you're a psycho you know but technically the even a gluts like pres is still a small range of motion and not necessarily a full lengthening i would probably it depends you know if you're like hey i care about it would come down to me if i cared more about glutes or quads and if i was like really trying to like blow my cds up the pendulum is unbelievable and if i cared more about the versity if i was only gonna get one and never ever ever even consider the other i'd go to the like press but if you like are somebody who's like on the path of acquiring more stuff over the next five ten years then maybe like i really want to blow up my quads you know the thing with the thing with the pendulum is also we have to consider that like it's giving you like what are your other opportunities to lengthen the quad and to get a lot of inflection in a high degree stability and the answer is not not a lot if you don't have a hack and so man this is a tough one because for me personally i would get the pendulum because i don't want to back squat just to me it's not a movement i've ever gotten a lot out of with my quads and when i look at the alternatives for lengthening the glut i've always been i could do a glut dominant backs swat and would be more likely to i can do glue dominant bulgarian sss i can do a bent rl i can do walking lunges none of which i hate as much as a high bar back squa for quads and so to take the machine that gets rid of the thing i hate the most and i still have plenty of opportunities to work with the glutes and the like the position i would go pendulum but hopefully just that me kind of word vomiting has helped this person with some context

[Unknown8]: 1:01:04

i

[Unknown10]: 1:01:05

what about you guys

[Unknown8]: 1:01:05

i actually love that yeah i think that you answered that with a lot of context and you actually so i if you would have asked me like one minute before you wrapped up and said pendulum which one you were leaning towards i would have been like oh he's gonna say leg press like the way that you kind of laid that out because my my my feeling is that like press would be my choice probably for all of the reasons that you listed that it's so versatile blah blah i think the one caveat that would really really make the leg press my choice would be if there was a way that you could set up in that leg press to make it extremely quad dominant like kind of the way that i do in my inverted leg press where i can put

[Unknown10]: 1:01:40

yeah sure

[Unknown8]: 1:01:43

the feet low use the heel wedges and get a lot of nene flexion out of that versus if it's just like a standard leg sled where you're just kind of stuck with the angle of the sled and you can't really do too much you can't use heel wedges or anything along those lines and then i'll also add that if you did want glutes on the pendulum um i was completely unaware of this until i actually did it but single leg work on the pendulum is pretty glut dominant i mean you know pelvic instability and all of that like like i felt it in my quads when doing the single pendulum but you know where was sore the next three days not my quads

[Unknown10]: 1:02:24

interesting

[Unknown8]: 1:02:24

my ass right so any time you do anything single leg you're inevitably going to get a bunch of gluten there and so this actually kind of feeds into my next question but i'm gonna hang tight and let aaron jump in here real quick

[Unknown9]: 1:02:39

you guys covered it so so well and i think if i had to provide the the best answer for the largest majority of people it would be a leg press but it has to be the right type of like press one that maybe has the double angled platform like the atlantis or not the atlanta i'm sorry the arsenal leg press has like a a a the bottom

[Unknown10]: 1:03:03

yeah

[Unknown9]: 1:03:03

portion of the platform leans to allow for more dor afc and then the top kind of kicks back that would help with the more glued it has to be the right type of like press because like what you said yeah i mean uh bent near d l or something like that that you can already perform with the equipment that's already in there the pendulum is really just it's like the best for the quad but it's a it's a one trick pony more or less so yeah i think i would have to say the like press but the right type of light press brian you meet it

[Unknown8]: 1:03:37

yeah i realized i was needed to it's definitely interesting for sure so the next thing i just wanted to jump into real quick was to talk about jordan and i were having an off air discussion right before we jumped on here about split squats and and aaron and i have talked about this on the podcast too so i'm just going to open with a very general statement and see if you agree that even if you do a split squat that is as quad dominant as possible it's probably still at best like a fifty percent quad fifty percent glut

[Unknown10]: 1:04:13

i would have to give more thought to

[Unknown8]: 1:04:15

yeah

[Unknown10]: 1:04:15

the fifty percent but i agree with one hundred yeah

[Unknown8]: 1:04:17

no it's a random just it's it's a good mix of gluten quad

[Unknown10]: 1:04:20

a hundred percent yes oh my god

[Unknown8]: 1:04:21

yeah yeah

[Unknown10]: 1:04:21

yes without a doubt and and that might not be something that's apparent at first until you've done when you try to get yourself out of a hole of a really really deep split squat uh that you've realized that like de quad doing it alone

[Unknown8]: 1:04:32

yeah yeah i would say like using soreness as the proxy you know i can set up in a rear foot elevated where i'm lengthening the reck fem on the back and i'm getting tons of knee flexion in the front and like all the things that we were taught at n one and then i'm like the next day i wake up and like the quads are e they're connoisseur but the glutes are like really really sore right and then you alternatively could do it the opposite way where you're literally trying to set the split squad up as like a glut dominant movement versus being you know quad dominant at all and then there's almost zero quad it's just like oh this is like really all glutes you know and you don't feel any quad in there at all so i think it kind of goes back to what i was saying with the pendulum about the pelvic instability in that any time that you do anything single leg you're just going to have a little bit more glue contribution than you probably would with a similar execution of a bilateral movement

[Unknown10]: 1:05:22

this is total anecdote but i found that let's say you take a heel dominant or a heel elevated front heel elevated split squat for quads and you know we have a little bit more of a forward and back movement we have a little bit more of like a move like an escalator versus an elevator

[Unknown8]: 1:05:34

is it

[Unknown10]: 1:05:34

we're moving a little bit more forward and back so we're really pursuing terminal slash and range nfc if you guys have seen like like the what's his what's his name niece over toes guy like imagine

[Unknown8]: 1:05:44

yeah

[Unknown10]: 1:05:44

we're doing something like that potentially not as deep potentially but whatever i found that it's the that that glut involvement only really kicks on again sensation and anecdote here but only kicks on in the transition from the e centric to concentric when i'm doing an e centric phase when i'm doing v

[Unknown8]: 1:06:03

yes

[Unknown10]: 1:06:04

centric phase of a split squat like that my quads are man i'm laser in i'm locked in i'm feeling the lengthening and then when i hit that end range and i push back out of that that's when i feel a gluts so what i've experimented with in the past is an eccentric dominant heel

[Unknown8]: 1:06:15

this is

[Unknown10]: 1:06:19

elevated split squat and so eps lateral loaded so holding a dumbbell only on the same side as the front leg and then the opposite side like holding on to something where i can give myself a little bit of help out of the hole and so maybe a four or five second d centric and then giving some help on the concentric out of the hole and then you know maybe on the top seventy percent of the movement on the way back feeling it less in my glutes i and i feel that way with squats too sometimes i'm doing squats and i'm like wow my quads on the way down and the ec i'm really feeling a good lengthening but when i stand up it's like you

[Unknown8]: 1:06:49

yeah

[Unknown10]: 1:06:50

know a call to arms of all muscles that could possibly help even if i'm in like a more quad dominant stance and so i found something that i've experimented with putting in the group obviously that's like a big element of like how much am i gonna teach this but the eas like if you could just do the e centric there i feel like that is something that i've also heard because we did heal elevated swat squats in the group for the first three meso cycles in a row which it was a crazy ask for a group of people that have never actually done any knee flexion you know which is basically everybody you know never put their knee past their toe and i got a lot of people that are like wow on the eccentric like i'm really getting this squad length thing and to push myself out of the hole and maybe that's because they were posterior tilting the bottom they were going too deep or

[Unknown8]: 1:07:28

yeah yeah

[Unknown10]: 1:07:29

they were leaning too far forward and these are all possible things but i've also experienced that and so yeah just from like trying to make your split squat more you might you might find that as like a root worth exploring

[Unknown8]: 1:07:39

i think mechanistically that makes a ton of sense too since we're stronger in the eccentric that you can actually like make the quad do the work but that when you get to the bottom of that loaded heavy loaded slit squat the quad is like hey dude i need some help getting back out of here and recruits a little glut to get back up so so i love that actually the single arm loaded uh hand supported i use that a lot in my own training as well and i always put it forward as an option in the group but most people don't take it because there's still a lot a part of that mindset of like well i want to be functional i want to know how to like balance how i'm doing it too you know and it's like goes back to that you know what is your actual goal here like why why would you do that why would you not do that but but that's really interesting i really actually like that and appreciate that suggestion

[Unknown10]: 1:08:22

yeah

[Unknown9]: 1:08:25

just to add my kind of add on to it the that is a movement that has been like a it's been a game changer for how i view things and i mean i have demolished my quads with that front foot sorry front foot sorry front foot wedge rear foot elevated split squat and it has to be that way when i try and do it with just a front foot wedge and not elevating that that uh uh that back foot i mean i have to elevate both feet just because my fem are of a certain length but when you can line that up right and perform it correctly i mean it will demolish your quads it has been like a like a it's definitely if i would say if i had to pick like a top five light bulb movements of my lifting career that would hands down make it and and it's just like but it takes a lot of mental space to perform it right and majority of people just are not going to take that time to set it up and dick with everything just to try and achieve it there but when you do it can be really especially if you have limited equipment right anyone can grab

[Unknown8]: 1:09:27

yeah

[Unknown9]: 1:09:28

some heel wedges off of amazon or something like that for pretty inexpensive you already have the dumbbells you get a box or two boxes or whatever those step platforms in there you have a very new avenue to run aa progressive brand new movement which should be cool

[Unknown10]: 1:09:42

that's the sort of movement that we're running that in my meta cycle like right now front heel elevated rear foot elevated with the goal of stride length being short enough to work the wreck them in the back leg enough knee flex in the front leg to work the front le quad and that's like i'm like six hundred people of form videos into like realizing that this is a tough thing to to tinker with from person to person and so that is also just an element of like circling back to the group discussion of like well i really have a threshold of good enough that i need to get everybody to and you know i'll i offer unlimited forum video you can send as many form videos as you want and i'm sure that that isn't scalable forever but for now i don't mind doing it but it gets to a point where it's like man you are at above this threshold of good enough and maybe we can tinker with it a little bit more but sometimes it's difficult for where i'm gonna draw that line for myself of like yeah you know i'd love to see your foot back one inch you know like so at

[Unknown8]: 1:10:36

right

[Unknown10]: 1:10:37

some point i'm like you you got the the height of the back leg right you have the matter amount of inflection right you have your torso upright if that's what we want and so there's some element of letting people know it's like hey it looks really good from here maybe tinker with this but i want to get everyone to a threshold of good enough to get the right stimulus right muscles and not hurt themselves first

[Unknown8]: 1:10:56

yep

[Unknown9]: 1:10:58

yeah brian

[Unknown10]: 1:10:59

brian what's that sorry brian what's a mo what's what is it i'm curious in your experience what's a a moment that you've been on the fence of incorporating something whether it's a type of stimulus or a movement that you had whatever you decided for or against and maybe like well kind of why not to put you on spot this is my podcast by the way i'm interviewing you guys but i'm

[Unknown8]: 1:11:19

no i love

[Unknown10]: 1:11:19

curious that's like yeah

[Unknown8]: 1:11:21

yeah one of my favorite things about podcasting with other podcasters is that they they tend to do this

[Unknown10]: 1:11:26

i

[Unknown8]: 1:11:26

and so i notice myself sometimes doing it on episodes well i was just on with jeff hone the other day and and i i posed a question to him too and i was like oh that's not even my podcast you know um no no i love it it's cool so i actually have done a lot of mental masturbation of sorts with a lot of the n one movements on on what to include what's practical how many other options i should provide you know as like an alternative to it um so so a hundred percent those ones i've what i ultimately ended up deciding on was offering them as a simpler alternative so instead of you know let's do the one in the functional trainer where you're supporting your body and you're like pulling around and you know you need the functional trainer with the moving arms and all these things it was like we we made a video of me doing the one hour kneeling iliac lap pull down and that is like so universally accessible like you can do it on a functional train or on a normal lap pull down station or whatever so i ultimately ended up deciding on that variation and then i filmed a couple videos of banded alternatives so that if people are at home or whatever they can do a banded version of it so that's certainly one the the other ones have really been like safety is something that i consider a lot too so like um like personally i love a back rack split squat or more specifically a safety bar split squat but like i wouldn't ask a general population of people where there's so many different varying levels to be like hey let's put a bar on your back and then have you do like a really unstable movement where you can't use your hands to help you if you need to you know so so things like that yeah i would say those are like the first two that really come to mind but i deal with those similar kind of ideas as far as selection across the board and then oh to go to the programming side because i actually wanted to ask you about the way that you program metabolic cycles too but the way i do it for the group is i actually combine systemic and local into one cycle instead of being like we're going to do two or three weeks of systemic and two or three weeks of local it's like you know we're going to do this circuit here that is like a full body systemic circuit then we're going to rest for a bit and then we're going to come and we're going to do a six by eight for leg extensions or or something along those lines so when i program metabolic work generally for the population for the group programs that's the approach i take how about you

[Unknown10]: 1:13:51

yeah i'm guessing you're making that choice from a this is gonna be more fun to have like a bit of an integration of both which

[Unknown8]: 1:13:56

yeah

[Unknown10]: 1:13:57

it's funny 'cause my one on one clients have just over the past year been putting more people through metabolic phases and when i'll do it i'll i won't do that let's say most of the time for the most part let's say we have like a you know a venn diagram the overlap will be smaller and i'll do more systemic whole body conditioning for a couple of let's say a couple weeks and then moved to local conditioning more ak stuff for a couple of weeks but it's tricky because what you just said is certainly more fun than doing it that way and so i'll have i have yet to experience although i know those people exist who really like systemic the funny part is if you like there are people out there who they're training right now and they love cardio and they love sweating and they love maybe crossfit and um and they go do systemic and it's their bread and butter they love it the funny part is if you come and you coach with me or you join my group and your one or two messy cycles into changing your mentality towards a progressive overload or hyper to be arresting long enough to have a good performance in your next set sort of mentality you start to get just so excited about those micro progressions but it's funny because like even the kinds of people that when i met them i'm thinking of a couple of my one on one clients when i met them they were that person and when i give them systemic i'm like the how they're gonna love it they're like and it's gonna be right back to their old days and they hate it and they're like well i'm so in tune now to not doing this and not sweating as much and not you know having cardio be the limiting factor and so that's been kind of cool to see just from like i like kind of see maybe it's my own bias me liking the fact that they like hypertrophy but just somebody getting to a point where they realize that that might not be the that being sweating and having your heart rate super high and all that stuff might not be the bl and all of fitness that there might be more to it it's always cool to see when i'm programming for the group we have not done metabolic yet but what's spinning around in my mind is what you did or have said that you've tried or experienced is a really good appeal to the fact that they are going to enjoy that more than doing either alone and just getting them to do it and enjoy it for the i mean if you were going to argue that there was a downside physiologically which i don't even know you could but if you could let's say there was you're trading that away for like this is going to be more fun than just doing eight ir ms and then or

[Unknown8]: 1:16:00

right

[Unknown10]: 1:16:01

eight whole body circuits the only thing that i've seen is like dipping my toe into a stimuli with the group before i give them something full blast and so what i've done is like you know i wanted to teach somebody like myos or partials or ir m or descending rep work and so like maybe the mesa cycle before i want to do that as a stimulus as a whole i give one exercise in there somewhere because let's say they've never somebody's never seen maybe somebody's not ready for like a sixty sixty super set which is not a super complex thing it's like i'm doing a lap pull down sixty seconds then i'm doing a walking luge sixty seconds and alternating between between those two maybe somebody that that's something new for them if they have that that's new for them and the ir m stuff that's new for them i just see people kind of like if there's too many new things at once now luckily the sixty sixty two percentage the circuit style training is people are that's going to compute better and so i don't think in your context you're throwing too much at them at all but like i'm it's tricky i'm a little newer to this than you you might have a better pulse of like what your group is capable of or like what

[Unknown8]: 1:17:04

yes

[Unknown10]: 1:17:05

they're emotionally and mentally ripe and ready for but i'm considering my plan probably will be in my next mesa cycle because that'll be like five hyper tree metal cycles in a row not that that's too many and we can talk about how often we want to do metabolic phases and stuff but i might drip one of these tactics into a hyper cycle and' be okay he we're going just to do an im like extension this meta cycle so you have an opportunity to this up and have it be very low consequence because it's only one thing if you don't understand irna cycle i broke that rule and we just jumped into descending rep work we're not doing it a lot but we're doing like five exercises with a descending rep scheme before ever having seen that and so i'm living that experience of like whether or not this will work but i've always had a better experience justy's with descending reps up with the myos that was so helpful you know we did one maybe behind the back lateral rays or like a hammer curl or something and so everyone had got all their questions out and all their confusion out when it was only one exercise and

[Unknown8]: 1:18:09

hm

[Unknown10]: 1:18:09

so when we did a slightly more metabolic slightly more probably oxidative style had a bit more myr partial you know stuff like deeper into fatigue stuff like people knew what it was or at least more more percentage of people knew what it was so that's a super long answer but i'm having program i envy you that you guys are doing the metabolic cycle my group knows that that's something i've expressed that we will do i will push them i will explore new stuff because even if that's not the best route to please the most people and make the most money it's something i know is probably best for them to grow intellectually become more mature lifters it's also something i'm interested in so it's a selfish pursuit of like i'll be more engaged with this whole thing if we're kind of pushing ourselves to grow a little bit

[Unknown8]: 1:18:48

oh

[Unknown10]: 1:18:49

so that's kind of my stance on that

[Unknown8]: 1:18:52

yeah the the metabolic cycle thing is definitely i agree with you that it is not going to take away significantly from the benefit to not split those two up and when you do look at that enjoyment factor of like hey today we're doing three full body circuits or we're doing like six sets of six by eight like literally you just want to you just want to be done by the time you're you're on the third one so um of course in my personal program which we're also doing a metabolic phase i'm doing it the proper way and so i'm only doing full body circuits for two weeks and then only doing it's actually not i'm doing a mix of ir m with the duration so you know some higher rep sets and some same same muscle group super setts i actually prefer same muscle group supers setts over duration sets so like instead of having to do fifteen to twenty reps of one movement you know you do eight of one superset with eight of another for the same muscle group much bigger fan of that and i think that most people are going to be more mentally engaged in a setup like that versus a duration method but one thing i did want to touch on real quick regarding the group programming is um is have you have you touched partials at all you did you mention that or did am i making that up

[Unknown10]: 1:19:59

no we did we did a banded dumbbell press so abandoned around the back which which i didn't which i made sure to experiment with myself because it doesn't you know when you ban something around the back it doesn't give you a lot of lateral tension so it's not actually pulling your arms apart a ton but and that that's what it looks like if you just watch somebody do it but i did it and i actually found the top position to be quite difficult

[Unknown8]: 1:20:23

this is

[Unknown10]: 1:20:24

and whether that's from a serratus like pushing my protract like pushing my scat forward or something i felt the top position to be notably more difficult like actually was doing something and so we did a banded db press into a lengthened paused partial d b press on a flat bench which was i don't know what the hell i was thinking about giving that but it worked out really great i thought

[Unknown8]: 1:20:45

nice

[Unknown10]: 1:20:46

people did really well with it it was so for me this was my one partial rep introduction to introduce something i know brian you know has either coined or feels very strong about is like pushing the stimulus and understanding that like i wanted to communicate them if we're gonna do partial in the future like let's do this now and let's figure out this like what is a way that i can chew up this you know how do i progress on parshall question of well if you can progress on exercise a the banded press do it and if you can't progress on the partial because you can always add another partial and if we prioritize it that way then we can care a little bit less if those partials become more partial over time as long as it's something added and so i think it worked out really well and yeah that idea of trying to communicate hey if if if you can't if you can't progress on a let's progress on b because you can kind of always do another partial obviously that's not true if you've done partials you know at some point you're just freaking done

[Unknown8]: 1:21:42

you're just not moving yeah you just paused

[Unknown10]: 1:21:42

but you can always try and do another partial you know yeah

[Unknown8]: 1:21:46

um no so that's that's really interesting i'm glad i like that you chose just one movement to like experiment with that on because what i've kind of struggled with in programming on my side is i've only really implemented it on back movements for like the group program because those are movements that i know

[Unknown10]: 1:22:02

and it's safer

[Unknown8]: 1:22:02

no matter what piece of equipment you have it's short overloaded so i really struggle with programming partials and it's probably not even something i'm going to do even when it comes to something like okay the option is you know cable crossover or banded crossover well there's bound to be people that are like well i don't have banded i don't know bands or cables so i'm going to do a dumbbell fly and i'm like ooh well now the whole rep scheme needs to change because nobody's doing a partial on a dumbbell fly type thing you know so i i find that that same experience happens across many movements where i'm programming it as a short overload movement like hey leg extensions or banded leg extensions and they're like i'm gonna do cissy squats and i'm like yeah let's not do partials there you know so so that's something i've really struggled with and so just so far in our program like it's been primarily like back movements where there's been anything like that and i just i can't really foresee a situation in which i'm probably gonna progress it much beyond that

[Unknown10]: 1:22:57

the the utilization of the partials with a lengthened pause on a lengthened movement was solely because that is that is if you look at that that is like the most metabolic damage or most mechanical damage you could be doing via like a home gym for packs let's say or one of them the reason being is we don't have a lot of pack movements and so this was like we're going to blast our pes with this one movement um mostly because it's a primarily female oriented group we have we have like a maybe twenty eight twenty split and so if dudes messaged me on the side and they're like hey what would you do you i'm like well we're gonna blast our peas mezza so like just see how you do with that because the soreness is you know i would prefer a a a short overload movement for for the additional partials but this was like a we're only going to do one thing of pax and so it's got to be lengthened and it might even be worse than that so yeah i agree

[Unknown8]: 1:23:46

no it's awesome i mean you just tried it on one movement

[Unknown10]: 1:23:48

y

[Unknown8]: 1:23:48

and then if by adding the band you also made it more short overloaded so no i don't think that was all good i wasn't trying to say that you

[Unknown10]: 1:23:51

true

[Unknown8]: 1:23:54

did anything wrong it was more just

[Unknown10]: 1:23:55

yeah

[Unknown8]: 1:23:56

like you know this is something i struggle with yeah yeah

[Unknown10]: 1:23:57

sure yeah no i see i see that it's no problem uh have you tried a reverse drops up in the group yeah right

[Unknown8]: 1:24:03

um i have in the evolved group i haven't done it yet so the way my process works is it goes me evolved ve paragon so right now it's in the the evald stage and then we'll see if a reverse drops set becomes the thing on parry on at some point

[Unknown10]: 1:24:16

yeah i train i train one person from like one of my good friends who became a good friend when we were when i was at back at that first gym i still trained her on zoom twice a week you can't even make this up it's like it's totally not something i ever want to do but it's just a very very close friend and that's what i do with her total experimental is totally guinea pig we're doing like reverse drop set you know ilia pull downs and a lot of like that banded work i try on her first and so that's like you need to you need some form of like guinea pig for that

[Unknown8]: 1:24:45

no absolutely it makes you just better at what you do

[Unknown10]: 1:24:48

yep

[Unknown8]: 1:24:49

striker i haven't heard from you in a while

[Unknown9]: 1:24:51

i was

[Unknown10]: 1:24:51

way in

[Unknown9]: 1:24:51

just gonna add that like i just love being the guinea pig myself right i mean i will see cause like there's a lot of times where like something looks great on paper and then you run it and you're like oh yeah that's not gonna work that's not gonna work at all so i personally just love doing that myself but yeah i mean just everything you guys said the w well the one thing i did want to add uh that i think could be a very smooth introduction to the partials is on lateral del type stuff that is a great movement it's really it's really really hard to kind of dick that one up i think

[Unknown8]: 1:25:19

yes yeah

[Unknown9]: 1:25:22

jordan

[Unknown8]: 1:25:23

yep

[Unknown9]: 1:25:23

might be sitting down or in the

[Unknown8]: 1:25:25

yeah so

[Unknown9]: 1:25:25

b up nope

[Unknown10]: 1:25:25

now we're good abort mission

[Unknown8]: 1:25:27

jordan hows standing been for the last hour and a half

[Unknown10]: 1:25:29

it's been good i was thinking about was thinking about switching it up but then

[Unknown9]: 1:25:33

we call we call you

[Unknown10]: 1:25:33

i just had like a moment where i like hit something and it didn't go down so i'm just gonna we're gonna deal with it later no worries

[Unknown8]: 1:25:40

nice

[Unknown10]: 1:25:40

yeah

[Unknown9]: 1:25:40

gotcha gotcha

[Unknown8]: 1:25:41

uh well i think that's all we got for him right

[Unknown9]: 1:25:43

yeah yeah so

[Unknown8]: 1:25:43

striker you want to tell everybody where to find you

[Unknown9]: 1:25:46

yeah jordan before we hop off please where can all the listeners find more of you can where can they find both of your group training programs and then you can let us know whether you are booked or not with personal or one on one clients and where they may be able to find a weight list if that is the case

[Unknown10]: 1:26:03

yeah i'm on instagram mostly i will i just repurpose content for tick tock so don't expect an answer there at all i'm on instagram for share come come hang out send a dm my website is jodl fitness com if you want to look for everything i have a podcast titled where optimal meets practical which does a similar job to what you guys do um i don't have cool co hosts though so it's not as cool let's say but yes similar topics and and brian both of you guys have been on the podcast so if you haven't listened to those come check those out i have links to the group programming in my bio there's also a podcast that explains what the group program is about and so if that's your question there's a link to that as well and that's about it thanks for having me guys

[Unknown9]: 1:26:43

awesome

[Unknown8]: 1:26:44

yep

[Unknown9]: 1:26:44

awesome awesome as always jordan thank you for coming hanging out having a very in depth quality conversation with brian and i and i'm sure we will do this again at some point in the future so for all the listeners out there guys brian and i will talk to you next week