Exercise Order / Dynamic Double Progression | ETP#40

[aaron_straker]: 0:25

I did not see that interesting right. Happy Tuesday. guys, welcome back to another episode of Train Prosper today and Brian myself are going over a little bit of a seven day update on us And then we have a training question that is in regards to periodizing your training withing you nutrition. and then we have some general muings and ideas that I have or thought should really classify them as that. I want to kick over to Bri and get some of his expert knowledge on of things that just have been floating around in my head from just being a lot more mentally in with my training lately. so we're

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:01

Mm.

[aaron_straker]: 1:01

going to dig into that. But before we get into this Bri, what's going on?

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:07

Well, another update and um, it's good news this time on my vsectomy, I feel much better so I'm back to training now. I'm uh, super happy about that and Uh had my very first strength training session yesterday and it went super well. So, uh, if you saw my story yesterday, Uh, my goal essentially based on the conversations that we'd had with the guys that dated driven strength. Um, I decided that I was going to do a top single at like an r, p, e, seven or r p, e, eight, Uh, for both my squat and my deadlift, and then after that, uh, back off sets at like a percentage of Uh, the top single and I surprised myself on both lifts. I couldn't believe it like three sixty five was what I hit on squat. and like, even when I was in the peak of training, like as hard as I could for back squat specifically like I was doing. You know, five by five ripetot type stuff, and my top set at five was three sixty five. I think maybe I got to three seventy five, but whatever it was like, my top five was around that range and I did one and it felt. I mean it was hard, but it didn't feel like I couldn't do a few more. so um, so I feel really good about that as a starting point and then on the dead lift. Um, I pulled four forty five, which doesn't surprise me as much. I had a little bit of back fleion, but that was mostly a set up issue, so I think that Um, I should be able to progress that one as well, going forward, and uh then followed it up with some some sub failure, sed off, uh inclined, Dubell benching kline curls. And uh, lateral raises, And it was a super fun day like I really enjoyed it. And uh, just you know, excited that that my, my scrotum feels good after all of that because I was a little bit worried. you know, for session back following heavy weights. So a okay. everyone's positive down there and then uh excited for my day off today and training end tomorrow Like there's something about the three day a week like having a rest day after every single training day That gets me so excited to train. Because, by the end of the rest day, I'm like already looking forward to the next session. Um, and that's kind of cool, too. I feel like almost like a kid in a candy store again with training, which, which is cool after all these years to be able to still say that.

[aaron_straker]: 3:29

Yeah, one thing that I wanted to, as did you. I couldn't remember from your stories. Did you have like a day, maybe four days ago or something like that? Like kind of greasing the groove and finding your squad like movement pattern and stuff again? Or was this like the first day that you've put a barbll on your back and you just max out, But like I need to find some, I need to establish working maxes,

[bryan_boorstein]: 3:55

Yeah, Yeah, so this was mostly the the. The, just the first go at it, Um, before the vsectomy, So it would have been like three weeks ago. At this point

[aaron_straker]: 4:03

Mhm.

[bryan_boorstein]: 4:04

I did one low bar squat day where I worked up to a three fifteen single and a two ninety five double or something like that, so nothing crazy just to like, Feel the weight and that felt really awkward. but I'm really glad I did that because even though that was three weeks ago, I think that that practice had a positive effect on today. Um, but mostly I would say that I went into today like as the first day and was extremely surprised by hitting three sixty five Like that was kind of not where I expected to hit as my top single. So all good things moving forward and it's not i. even, you know. it's funny. I actually think a couple of episodes I made a reference to you about how like I never want to put four o five on my back and have to squat it again, or or something along those lines, but after feeling how how well three sixty five moved like, I completely change my opinion on that and I'm like I can absolutely handle four or five on my back again after you know a few weeks of progressions, so

[aaron_straker]: 5:01

Do you have enough weight in your basement to do that?

[bryan_boorstein]: 5:04

yeah, you, I have uh, four hundred pound plates.

[aaron_straker]: 5:07

Oh, you have four one hundred pound plates. Oh, I

[bryan_boorstein]: 5:10

Yeah, yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 5:10

for from loading the the squat hack press. Got you gota okayt, So you have

[bryan_boorstein]: 5:13

yeah, yeah, exactly. and then I' have a bunch of forty fives and thirty fives and all that too. So um, so yeah, I mean, I delifted four forty five

[aaron_straker]: 5:19

plenty.

[bryan_boorstein]: 5:21

yesterday as well, and so I used. Uh, I didn't use both the hundreds, So if I used both the hundreds and the bar, that would have been four forty five, which would actually be kind of a cool look. But uh, but I didn't load it that way, I lett it with one hundred on each side.

[aaron_straker]: 5:35

Yeah, that's fantastic. I'm super excited for you to to see things move so well so quickly. you know,

[bryan_boorstein]: 5:41

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 5:41

kind of gives me a little bit of hope for myself. When I do transition,

[bryan_boorstein]: 5:45

Yeah, and it's uh. It's on the tale of a conversation I had with Anders on his podcast, too, Uh, Barbal shrugged about this and he was like giving me a hard time and busting my balls about. Um, you know why you just keep doing these like back supported movements like, why don't you do like a real movement that builds real strength, And uh, and like he literally was. This was our conversation on the podcast and I was like. Well, I think that the hack spot does build real strength. but um, you know, I guess we'll see like the proof is in the pudding and we'll see when when I start squatting again, So as soon as I hit that three sixty five single with like you know, super fast concentric speed, I acceptent that to him and I was like, Hey, how's that for real strength? You know he liked it.

[aaron_straker]: 6:25

that's super cool. Anything else? Um with you in the last week,

[bryan_boorstein]: 6:29

Uh, no, I think that's pretty much it. How about you?

[aaron_straker]: 6:31

Uh, Brookly, before I told out ma, have you transitioned back into your Um, kind of subjectivetiet underfed over fed, uh tracking mechanism,

[bryan_boorstein]: 6:40

Yeah, Yeah, I said last week that it was going to be last week that I did it, but it wasn't It ended up being. Uh. it ended up being this week. So it was yesterday and today I've been doing well with it. Uh, my body weight is up to one ninety this morning, Um, and that's one ninety, one, ninety, one. Something like that is like going to be the highest point that it's going to see, and then it should drop three or four pounds at a minimum. Uh, just from from following Theti base protocol.

[aaron_straker]: 7:05

Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 7:06

I had uh, a couple gatherings with, you know, friends of bryceons, or parents, friends of prices or whatever,

[aaron_straker]: 7:12

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 7:13

And so I was drinking beer and we had like a cook out and like the whole thing, So um three weeks I had three weeks of this striker of not being smart and not reversing properly, And so I went from a body weight that was like eight pounds below you, and now we're basically at the same body weight again,

[aaron_straker]: 7:31

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 7:32

So hey awesome,

[aaron_straker]: 7:36

yeah, Um with me, I mean, not much. We had friends in town, and ironically the weather here was awful like the worst weather since we've been here I in in Salt Lake City this past weekend and it just like dumped rain. but we

[bryan_boorstein]: 7:49

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 7:49

made the best of it. We went hiking like the night they got in and that was pretty cool. The next day we went hiking in like literally a torrential downpour, and we all quickly realized that waterproof doesn't really mean waterproof

[bryan_boorstein]: 8:02

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 8:03

all the time, So I had this jacket. My God's waterproof like is perfect and it was great for like the first sixty percent And then I'm like man. I'm feeling like kind of ma. am I sweating? And then I like check. and like my whole neck is like drenched. And yeah, by the time I got back to the car like

[bryan_boorstein]: 8:18

Oh man,

[aaron_straker]: 8:18

we were soaked through. S. like completely, Um, but I mean it was. it was fun to get out and just like go go play and go hikeing and stuff like that, but it got we were it. It was interesting how quickly like weather can change in these places. You know, it was I. I made the joke like last, so it would be two weekends ago. Now we went hiking. I literally had to take my shirt off 'cause it was so hot. it was like the mid eighties and I was dying 'cause I had a long sleeve shirt on and then literally, that was on Sunday. Six days later we went hiking and it was in the thirties and I

[bryan_boorstein]: 8:50

Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 8:50

was like triple layered up like Beane and I was like my hands were like numb, like frozen type thing, And I'm like it was six days like. That's it. So it was pretty go, pretty cool having friends in town. Um, one thing that I thought was really really cool is with, you know, my position with nutrition, and and how I basically live my life. Same thing with Jenny, my girlfriend, We kind of like will rub off on our friends a little bit, so like friends came into town, we went out to eat a couple of times and where we went out to eat, We got um, uh, Afghanni food one night, then we got Vietnamese the next night we did Uh, a Lebanese restaurant and then thae So like it. We always do like foreign type foods where I mean they're just I love them like I'm goingnna take that over like a burger fries. like you know, piz like ten out of ten times And it's just been cool to be able to influence like our friends with lifestyle and stuff like that. And then it just just turned into like eating shit food. And you know trash in your body type of thing when you get together, So we like went hiking literally. Every single day they were here. We only ate like healthy foods. Um, and it was really cool and had some really awesome conversations as well, so I mean that was a big change, or or update for me, Um, and then kind of w. my training as I. I briefly alluded to on last week's episode. I maybe like three weeks ago I started putting my phone in airplane mode, not airplane, mo, focus mode, so I could still listen, Um to like music when I'm training and then like no email tax insteagram Like nothing. So then like on my like two minute rest periods I'm like little, just thinking you know, and it produced a a a handful thoughts that I wanted to bring up. It really turned into into today's episode. So, uh, if you don't have anything else to update, I will, uh, kind of kick us off with this one

[bryan_boorstein]: 10:43

sure,

[aaron_straker]: 10:44

cool. So uh, it kind of first started with um. I. I. I recently wrote a new training block for for one of my clients this past week, and uh, when I was googling some things right, I wanted to make it a double dynamic, a progression that we would use and I just googled it in a first Google entry of Volve Training systems. Like a a blot blog article you wrote specifically on Uh, double dynamic progression, So I wanted to just kind of talk a little bit more about it because I still don't think it's something that like a lot of people understand, Um,

[bryan_boorstein]: 11:14

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 11:15

and for me personally, I think I'm going to really shift heavily to this kind of paradigm, like for for the majority of things, and kind of what I wanted to to ask you, or, or kind of kick off to you is like. Why would it be like? Why would we want to use this right? This? this d d p progression style to like, Stay within a target Reprange right, let's

[bryan_boorstein]: 11:38

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 11:38

say our target Re range For examples, eight to ten. instead of just like using the same weight and maybe be on rep. Sorry, set one, I get nine, set two, I get eight and then set three. I, I drop off hard, which is common and I get like five. Like, why would a d d P be A in in a more appropriate approach to that?

[bryan_boorstein]: 11:58

I actually don't really think that. It is. I just

[aaron_straker]: 12:00

Okay,

[bryan_boorstein]: 12:00

think it's one way to do things.

[aaron_straker]: 12:02

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 12:02

Um, I really like the rap drop off approach, too. I think. the So, the the goal of any of these programs or like, I guess, the reason why Brian Minor even came up with the whole dynamic double progression model was simply to fit the idea of letting progression meet you instead of trying to force progression. And that can happen with either of those those rap approaches Like. It's really about which way allows you to be more diligent in your execution of it so that you don't find yourself trying to chase improvement on the bar and understanding that our preparedness is not the same week to week. Like if we bench pressed two, twenty five times ten one week we might not be as prepared via, you know, lack of sleep stress, nutrition, a number of different variables when we come in the next week, But to try and sit there and arbitrarily force two hundred and twenty five by eleven, or to try and put two thirty on the bar and see what happens just because you did two twenty five by ten last week, Um, that doesn't really allow you to meet your readiness where it is, And so the dynamic double progression is just. A, a way in which it kind of puts into play the option that Hey, it's okay if you don't hit the reps that you're going for you. lower the weight. You stay in the rap range and you, you meet your target, R, i R. for that day, Um, so I think that that for that way, like, like, If if you look at dynamic public of progression of something that was created for that purpose, that's great, I think it works really well. You can do the same thing with the Rap drop off approach. I think with the Maybe with the Rep drop off approach is that it's not as inherent that like hey, it's okay if you don't necessarily match or beat your performance from last week. Whereas it's almost like intuitive within the dynamic doubleression model that it is okay and that maybe the next week that means you come back in meeting it where it is I. You know you hit the top of Rep range and then you know it's just it's assessing where you feel you are on a session decession basis, and then meeting your your r. I R and letting load and reps kind of dictate based on that

[aaron_straker]: 14:17

Gotcha That was a really good explanation. So something that I I guess like with all things right, it's Ah. The context is as open for individual variability. For me. I've really really enjoyed this because sometimes I'll find that like with the Rep drop off approach, I will drop off to like a rep range that I don't really want to be into for like maybe like five raps, right, Like that may not be best for like hyperchphy, or not even like best for high pertrophy, But there's that like threshold generally around that like five, maybe six rep range where it's just like super super heavy, Right and

[bryan_boorstein]: 14:57

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 14:58

you've kind of, and this is what I find I do. I may like kind of compromise things just because it's so heavy and I'm just trying to move it versus like if in that eight rep range eight to nine, it's more. I don't want to say, Like focus, but it's more. it. just it feels better. You know. it feels like I, I'm pressing with my like, actual target

[bryan_boorstein]: 15:20

Mhm, Mhm, Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 15:20

musculature that I want to use as opposed to like Fuck. this is so heavy. I just have to get it up type of thing. You know what I mean and

[bryan_boorstein]: 15:26

Yeah, I know. absolutely. I understand what you mean.

[aaron_straker]: 15:28

and it's been really really good F. for me, especially 'cause I have a high drop offer. You know, some people might be a little bit closer. But like, let's say we're doing Like what? What example do we want to use? Like just a dumbbell bench press right simple with, like, let's say I have eighty pounds. I might be able to do like fourteen reps on set one by set three. I'm probably at eight, you know like,

[bryan_boorstein]: 15:51

Mhm, Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 15:52

and that's damn near half type of thing where what I've really like to do is like, Let's say the target re range is twelve on rep or set one. I'm like Hey, I know I'm going to be able to perform. I'm go to bump up to like eighty fives here, and then I might drop to like the the eighties, and then I might drop to the seventy fives, but I can still

[bryan_boorstein]: 16:10

Mhm, Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 16:10

like the the subjective perception of that You know, r, i R is like consistent across each rep. Um, I' sorry set. because like as fatigue accumulates, your you know modulating load to

[bryan_boorstein]: 16:26

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 16:27

kind of produce that similar subject of perception of how the rap feels, Does that make sense?

[bryan_boorstein]: 16:33

Yeah, yeah, totally, I think. Um, just as like a tangent that there's going to be more rap drop off from higher upsets. So when you play fourteen or something, it's goingnna drop off more than if you started at like eight, and then it might go like seven than six instead of like fourteen. then eleven and nine or something like that. Um, and a lot of that is like metabolitecrument, and things like that. Um, Secondarily, you take short rest between sets, so I think you would mitigate some of that drop off if you took like three to four minutes between sets instead of two. Um

[aaron_straker]: 17:04

And this is something that At is the second point I wanted to have down. I

[bryan_boorstein]: 17:07

and third. You also use an example of a Dubell bench press which is limited

[aaron_straker]: 17:07

want talk about

[bryan_boorstein]: 17:12

by the tricepts, Usually, which is an extremely fastwitch muscle. So I think for all of those reasons that was a that. an interesting example. I just think important to point out to the listener that that Rep drop off does depend on those kind of variables. but back to the point of kind of Uh, what you were saying is that I a hundred percent agree Like there. So what? I should have qualified in the beginning? When I said the Rep drop off model is totally fine as well, is Um that there is a point where they're dropping too low. Like if you start with fifteen and drop to eight, I think that's fine like I. I think, If you prefer that model and you don't want to do the dynamic of progression, then fifteen to eight is a fine drop off over three or four, three to four sets. Um, when you start starting at like twelve and end up at four or something like that, or start at ten and end up at three or four, whatever it is like, if you end up dropping below, I would say six, like five, five or six, Probably six. If you're below six raps. You're probably not in the hyperchy, zone. and you're probably at that point where you almost need to add an extra set because the stimulus the hyperchfy stimulus from from that set is probably lower than than it would be at like seven or eight reps. Um. So those are all kind of things to keep in mind, but to again to to your point, the uh. The example I was thinking of when you were talking about like you know you're doing five or six reps in. It's different feeling than when you're doing like ten reps. It's like me on the pendulum squat every time, like when I fail it.

[aaron_straker]: 18:39

that was literally my Exact. Thatath was my. What? What created this thing with me on the Pendulum Squad like to Aity?

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:48

Yeah, so so literally it's like you do five reps and you feel like your your failure is because your body is about to like, just collapse and break and half. So you trying to get up As like some combination of your aductors, your quads, your glut. You're you're moving your chest for it a little bit like you're just bracing in all these different ways and there's all these like contributions of musculure. But when you do the ten rep set of pendulum, it's like literally, your quads are the thing that fails you. And so I a hundred percent relate to that example. And um, I feel like if you're going to use the lower side of the rep ranges, it would almost make more sense to me to do more sets further from failure like the dayta driven approach, Because then you're doing your pendulum squat and you're using like you're doing like a set of five, but you're using like a eight or ten r m weight with it, so that last wrap of five that you do is a very stimulative rep to your quads, and you're not contributing from all the other musculature. Um, so I think that that's one approach, but um, but the dynamic of of progression is great because it kind of ensures that you stimulate the muscle you're trying to stimulate. And like you were saying, if you go from the eighty five to the eighties to the seventy fives or whatever, so that you're continuing to stay in the rep range and continue to get what would be effective reps from every rep that you do Versus you know, you get to a point where you're using the eighty five still, But you're trying to grind out reps, and then your front delts are contributing, your elbows popping out and just your leverages change as you try to compensate.

[aaron_straker]: 20:25

the last question. I have there. Another reason I really like it is. There are more. so. Let's be clear here right when you're talking about Rep ranges and stuff like that when you decide to increase your load is kind of subjective. Something that I have personally struggled with exce with the drop off Um methodology is like when

[bryan_boorstein]: 20:48

Mhm.

[aaron_straker]: 20:49

is appropriate to increase load? Like let's say that rep range is ten to twelve. my first set. I can get fourteen. On my second set I get maybe eleven and then set three. I get like seven and I'm like Well,

[bryan_boorstein]: 21:02

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 21:02

set one's way over. Sau is right in the middle that three' way under and I'm like when should I go up type of thing, So that one has always been kind of tricky for me and I think what I've kind of ended up doing in the past is sticking with a a weight way too long because I'm I'm just undecided and then I'll end up like you know, I remember. The example that comes to mind is like the the hammer strength, like Um, Iso chest press machine, right,

[bryan_boorstein]: 21:27

Mhm, Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 21:27

obec. Okay, my rap range is like ten, ten to twelve. I would end up doing like sixteen, Bec because the first set I can always progress because I'm fresh. You know, et cetera that last that third set is still, would come up at like nine or something like that, and I'm under the Rep range, so that that's kind of. uh, I just in' in with personally, Or what would you suggest like a client would do in in this particular kind of a scenario

[bryan_boorstein]: 21:52

So I actually program most people with the D, the Wp drop off approach because I think it's just simpler to explain to a general pop,

[aaron_straker]: 21:59

It is.

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:00

and Um and I, I always program with wide rep ranges, so you'll see me program six to fifteen or eight to twenty, eight, fifteen,

[aaron_straker]: 22:07

Hey,

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:08

ten to twenty things like

[aaron_straker]: 22:10

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:10

that. And so my, my, My progression is basically when your tops set hits the top of the repine, you increase weight on all sets. So like if you hit fifteen and you end at eight, you're increasing next week because you first hit fifteen.

[aaron_straker]: 22:25

Okay, perfect,

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:25

Um, yeah, so I think that that's the simplest way to do it and it gives you at least something to shoot for, And the cool thing about that is that you get to shoot forward on your first set when you're freshested,

[aaron_straker]: 22:34

Mhm.

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:35

So you kind of get like a consistent metric of whether improvement is happening or not.

[aaron_straker]: 22:39

Okay, cool. Anything else you wantnna add on this one before I kind of um shift a little bit.

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:43

No, that's good. Yeah, I go for it.

[aaron_straker]: 22:45

Okay, cool. So this all again? This stemmed from Um, my my workouts this week, so I wanted to kind of just get your thoughts or ideas around rearranging the exercise order of a program to give

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:57

Mhm.

[aaron_straker]: 22:58

greater rest between the same body part. For example, right now I'm doing an upper lower split, so I'm training like pretty much my entire upper body on one day. The way that the program is is written, or the way that, Uh, you know many are. It would be like, Um, let's say this one's chest focus. So we have like three chest exercises and then we have like some shoulder exercises, maybe like one back exercise and like a trice. So yesterday I was like, you know what, I'm going to split things up and I'm just going to move by my primaries or or or my biggest. So instead of doing my three chest exercises in a row, I'm going to do it the first chest, and then I'm going to go to my like my vertical back pulling. Then I'm going to go to my shoulder like my first shoulder. So I was like taking my, like my top move or my top movement for each body part except for tricipz. I, I, obviously ured. I didn't last, but I went a chest movement. I did a back movement. I did a shoulder movement, then I did. Uh, I think my second back movement, a second chest, and then the the second shoulder, and what I found is that like just by separating my two chest exercises by, I don't know, Maybe another twenty thirty minutes I was able to like perform much better on that

[bryan_boorstein]: 24:09

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 24:10

secondary chest exercise, which of course makes sense because we have more rest in between. Do you think that there is maybe any hypertrophic benefit to to doing something like this because I can move more load at higher rep range is just by separating it, or do you think that it may be a wash Because you know we know that metabolite build up and those sort of thing has some Um contributing factor to to hyperrophy, And just put your thoughts on this in general,

[bryan_boorstein]: 24:41

good question. Yeah, um, I always program with alternating antagonist muscle groups. Um. I can't even unless, unless the goal is metabolite effect, so in a metabolite cycle like I would do it purposefully to create metabolites within a region and then kind of move ont to the next region. Um. but yeah, I would say ninety percent of the time my programming looks like alternating like you described. Um. Yeah, I w. I would say even in my own programming it's that as well, and the way I do. I for myself, I do it almost as a time saver 'cause like I know, I want to rest four minutes between sets of chest. Um, so I'll go. Oh you. you're talking about alterating exercises. So yeah, so I guess there's multiple different ways you can do this. Sometimes I alternate sets of each. Like, if I want longer, rest is where I was going with that, So

[aaron_straker]: 25:29

Mhm.

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:30

I would do like a set of chest rest, two minutes, a set of back rest two minutes than then. I have four minutes before I have do my chests again. Um. but what you were saying is literally the same idea. It's like I smashed chess. I hit my three sets of of bench or whatever. and then I give myself twenty minutes while I go do some back. and then I'm back to like doing flies or whatever it is, and then I do my rowe. Um, and that too, Like, Yeah, I would say that's usually how I program for others for myself. I don't generally alternate actual sets, and the reason I don't program that in in other programs usually is because I don't know what peoples setups are, and if they're able to necessarily move freely from machine to machine, or or uh, occupy two different pieces of equipment at the same time.

[aaron_straker]: 26:12

Understood.

[bryan_boorstein]: 26:12

But I do think that even al alternating sets back and forth is is a great approach, but for your example, like, yeah, that works too. I honestly think whatever allows you to lift the most weight without unnecessarily extending your cession makes the most sense. so um, a hundred percent Yes, I think the one. there's a couple areas that you would want to be cautious with right. So you putting delts before chest is kind of in that grey area of what I would say would be okay or not be cause. I think, uh, putting a a pulling movement after a chest and then going back to chest is fine because they directly oppose each other. putting a lateral delt movement in there is going to have some impact. I would think on stability in from the shoulders in your next pressing exercise. So generally, if it's an upper body program for me, it will go like pushpole pushpole, and then it will go into shoulders and arms stuff. And then obviously you have the same issues where you would never want to program like a bicept or of triceps before doing a back or a chest movement. Um, unless you were specifically in like an arm specialization cycle or a couple of other extenuating circumstances,

[aaron_straker]: 27:24

Yeah, I kind of split it up. Um. Based on I, man, I wish I could remember the the research, but there I think there's been a couple, um, recurring, um studies of a come out that like what you prioritize earliest in the in the

[bryan_boorstein]: 27:37

Yes,

[aaron_straker]: 27:37

training session is going to get like the best stimulus. and for me like my chest just grows. You know, I mean. for years

[bryan_boorstein]: 27:43

right,

[aaron_straker]: 27:44

I pretty much neglected it and it's still one of my best body parts, so I was like. I. shoulders are my priority. Like I will do. I did my first cheest exercise because it's just been fun progressing like the the low inclined Dubell bench, So like that's make my

[bryan_boorstein]: 27:58

yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 27:58

strength type one. I'm going to obviously put that first. But then I did like my, my horizont or my like, lateral Delt and vertical pressing, Um. before I went back to finish the rest of my chests, because like I'm okay with my chest stuff dropping off. I, because shoulders are my priority. Um over that,

[bryan_boorstein]: 28:13

right,

[aaron_straker]: 28:13

but yeah, I would. I wouldn a hundred percent agree if your chest is your priority. doing your shoulders before that. you're They're going to fatigue fatigue. You pressing?

[bryan_boorstein]: 28:21

yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 28:21

For sure?

[bryan_boorstein]: 28:23

you may even want to just put shoulders first like in general I just put it before everything.

[aaron_straker]: 28:29

Yeah, I mean, I pr. I should. but then obviously that ches that Dumble Chess press will drop off and I had a goal like. I want to see if I could hit like the one tens or the one fifteens. Um, Yeah, Yes, I know that that would directly impact that.

[bryan_boorstein]: 28:39

right right, you have goals. Yeah, strength goes over athletic goals For sure.

[aaron_straker]: 28:49

Yeah, so I mean, okay, that was

[bryan_boorstein]: 28:51

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 28:51

really really cool. It's something that. I mean. I think I'm just it was like a big eye opening thing. I was like Well, and that's another reason. why like tracking your metrics like week to week is so important Because it was

[bryan_boorstein]: 29:01

Mhm.

[aaron_straker]: 29:01

on that secondary chest exercise. I was like Okay, like I'm going to add, you know five pounds, because I'm splitting it up. you know, I think and I like smashed through and I was like, Oh, wow,

[bryan_boorstein]: 29:10

yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 29:11

and then I added like another five and I was still able to like

[bryan_boorstein]: 29:13

right,

[aaron_straker]: 29:14

match raps from last week. Um, I'm like that's that's pretty substantial for a one week change just by moving it like twenty

[bryan_boorstein]: 29:21

yeah, yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 29:22

minutes back in my exercise order

[bryan_boorstein]: 29:23

I know.

[aaron_straker]: 29:24

that I could perform an extra ten pounds for the same amount of reps. Um, so it was like

[bryan_boorstein]: 29:29

Yeah.

[aaron_straker]: 29:29

this is something I want to talk to Brian around tomorrow, so it was pretty cool.

[bryan_boorstein]: 29:34

I. Yeah, I noticed the same thing too, because I uh, always did inclined dumbbell press first, and then throughout my whole cut I was doing dumbbell fly press, and then going into Dubell incline press. And uh, because I was carrying that fatigue from the dumbbell fly press into the incline press. I was using fifteen pounds less for the same reps that I was using when I was doing the Dubell press first. Um, And that's even with alternating uh, back and forth with the Uh with the pull downs. So I think that you know that speaks to your point that an extra ten minutes of rest on top of that makes a huge difference.

[aaron_straker]: 30:14

cool. Okay, so

[bryan_boorstein]: 30:16

Yp,

[aaron_straker]: 30:16

I've one more thing I wanted to talk, Uh, kick, kick a kick over you that. I

[bryan_boorstein]: 30:20

yep,

[aaron_straker]: 30:21

man. I'm telling you guys, Wh when? when I started focusing on my workouts right with with that airplane mode thing, like my, the thoughts and stuff I've've been kicking up, have just been fantastic. So another disappearly kind of conjecture. I'm really just looking at. Ah, your thoughtsurrounded Brian. So

[bryan_boorstein]: 30:36

yep,

[aaron_straker]: 30:36

since like progressing hypertrophy, Right is somewhat different from progressing strength. Um, in that like hypertrophy, you can't like force feed hypertrophy right, it's a. It's a you. You provided a stimulus. your body adapts type of thing, and then you kind of repeat that cycle. Would you think that possibly progressing on purpose slightly slower rather than faster, might extend your window of progression opportunity? while, because you can mitigate the amount of fatigue accumulating, so the example I'm kind of thinking of is like, Let's say I just tried to increase ten pounds per week, right. I'm going

[bryan_boorstein]: 31:15

mhm, Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 31:15

to by in doing so increase my rate of fatigue because it's more load more. You know, central, uh, morcaneslo type of thing, Instead of that, What happens if I were to? Maybe not necessary, I wrote down microloading here, but maybe just a two and a half pound increases instead. so I cut that in half. Um, do we think that that five pound increase would provide equal amount of hypertrific benefit that would match the rate of fatigue accumulation? Or do we think that, potentially maybe me by amusing the work term microloading, but can still provide sufficient stimulus to produce hypertrophy while mitigating the rate of fatigue accumulation? and that maybe

[bryan_boorstein]: 31:59

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 31:59

we can extend a training block from like five to six weeks to maybe eight to nine because fatigue is accumulating at a slower rate,

[bryan_boorstein]: 32:08

Yeah, it's a like total area under the curve right, So if you, if you, adding ten pounds to a lift puts you into a space where you are now doing a zero r. I left and by micro loading, you're able to still progress, but maintain one to two r, i r, or whatever, Then, Yes, I think over the long term that compounds and you are able to extend your cycle, But if you are microloading and you're still going to zero r. i r. It doesn't matter whether it's ten pounds heavier or ten pounds lighter or nine pounds lighter or whatever it is, It's still that same a impact on the body, so I don't know that that necessarily would increase the span of the cycle, right, um, I th. I. I. I still think this almost like

[aaron_straker]: 32:58

S.

[bryan_boorstein]: 32:59

is super related to the dynamic double progression conversation we had earlier, because ultimately, like the pinnacle of progression is to not try to progress. It's just to to lift weights and go through life, and one day you look up and you're like fock. That's really easy Now. I don't think that that that's hard enough. I need to add weight like that's kind of the the thinking about it right. but I suck at this. I'm the worst. The amount of times that I actually didn't experiment last year and I, I didn't record my lifts for like a month or a month and a half, and I was just like I'm going to do this method where I just like feel for the day. whatever I should hit. You know, and like what happened was, it starts feeling really hard. Like almost immediately, like you get to four r. I r. You're like Whoa. This is hard, right and then if you don't have a number you're shooting for, it's really easy to convince yourself in the middle of a set of lag extensions or hack squats that you know nine is good. I don't need ten or ten is good. I don't need eleven or whatever it is, and so yes, in a perfect world If you were a robot and you could just work to what is one or two. R. I r. every single session and be blind to whether you have to progress or not. then I think that that is the pinnacle of what you want to achieve. Like that would be that would be awesome. I would be so jealous of anybody that could be like. Yeah, I just like you know, go in, do my thing and then I record myself afterwards. and No, No, any percent of the time I aprush. I don't know how it happened. It just happened. you know like that. That doesn't happen. Though,

[aaron_straker]: 34:31

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 34:32

right, so for me like, I love microloading and I don't even think two point five pounds is small enough because

[aaron_straker]: 34:38

No,

[bryan_boorstein]: 34:38

two twenty five pounds, you're going to butt up against failure really quickly, like depending on the lift. Um, two point five pounds might be a good number when you're lifting five hundred on a leg press. and then you go up two point five and then you go up two point five or whatever. But two hundred two point five pounds on like Emiler. Raise would be absurd, but like two point five, even on a bench press, If're bench pressing two hundred, and you go to two, two, oh, two point five. That's a much bigger increase than it is against five hundred pounds. so I, I really like the idea of loading uh point five to one percent of the of the lift each week, and I just kind of do that endlessly until I reach a point where I'm like man fatigue'. really high. I'm really struggling to match reps, and I don't feel recovered and like I can usually make my my times now last, you know, seven to ten weeks to your to your point, Uh, whereas before when I was following more of that like Isratallian approach, where I was adding five pounds every week, No matter what, I would butt up against the need for a deload after four or five weeks, you know, like clockwork

[aaron_straker]: 35:39

yeah, yeah, cool. So to kind of boil that down and I will try and boil it down for myself, And then hopefully I do a sufficient job for the listeners as well. Is obviously the microloading right, get grabbing some change plates, which are actually pretty cheap, which should, because

[bryan_boorstein]: 35:52

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 35:53

they weigh pretty much, of

[bryan_boorstein]: 35:54

right,

[aaron_straker]: 35:54

course, And then, assuming that you in microloading you can consistently match your Rrir from the previous week while

[bryan_boorstein]: 36:04

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 36:04

increasing load a little bit. so we don't want to increase load at the expense of going to failure Now, because that is obviously going to um dramatically increase your fatigue. You can

[bryan_boorstein]: 36:15

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 36:15

potentially extend your Um block for maybe an extra three or four weeks or something like that, thus hopefully producing a littlet more hyperriphic stimulus. Um, and extending that you know over compounding over timee it can get hopefully a little bit more gains out of thats.

[bryan_boorstein]: 36:31

Yeah, for sure, and then I think that even if like, I guess it depends where you trained, but say. You're training at one to two r, i r. and then you have a week where you end up butting up against failure. I don't even think that that's the end of the world, because we know that preparedness changes day to day Like if you're following the the dynamic Ofle progression model, then Yes, I think that you would in fact, want to be like. Okay, you know, I lost a rep from last week and it is what it is and I'll get that rap back next week, right. I think in the microloading model and what I've found successful for myself is I really do just try to match reps every week, So I look at my log book. I'm like Okay, I got ten last week. I'm in at one pound and I'm going to get ten again. And if that butts me up against failure, I'm okay with that because I know that preparedness changes week to week. If that happens a second week in a row, I'm raising my eyebrows and I'm like Okay. I hit failure twice, but usually what will happen unless I really do need a deload. Is that by the second or third week I'll hit the same reps again, but I'll be back to being one to two reps shy of failure. Um, because my preparor dis improved and I felt better going into it, et cetera et cetera. so Um, I'm not scared of buttting up against failure, but I just think that you look at that with an eyebrow raised and you're like Okay. let's see what happens next week. And if I keep buting up against failure then maybe it's time for a deload.

[aaron_straker]: 37:53

Yeah, that was a really good point to bring up is because, especially that preparedness changes with

[bryan_boorstein]: 37:57

Mhm.

[aaron_straker]: 37:58

myriadta factors outside the gym.

[bryan_boorstein]: 38:01

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 38:02

I mean that's all I had from from those uh, kind of muings of of my brain last night in the gym,

[bryan_boorstein]: 38:07

yep,

[aaron_straker]: 38:07

But uh, those were a fantastic way questions answer.

[bryan_boorstein]: 38:08

I love it. No, keep them coming, because I feel like these make for really good pockass episodes because they're kind of like discussions. There' things that that are really happening with somebody in a real training environment that are like real thoughts that are impacting your training throughout that time. So Um, keep sayying on airplane mode and let's keep having these conversations.

[aaron_straker]: 38:28

Yeah, do you want to Ah, handle this question that came into vi. a Dm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 38:33

Yeah, totally. so this was actually a. a, um, a topic of conversation in the Paragon group

[aaron_straker]: 38:41

Oh, perfect

[bryan_boorstein]: 38:41

And so our moderator who is Superrad Ain. she was like, Hey, you guys should talk about this on the podcast because you know everyone was really curious about it and it was a very interesting topic. She's like you know, Tell us talk about it long form and kind of get some insight into this. So basically the general question was the periodization of nutrition with the periodization of training. Should we Ca cut during a strength cycle or cut during a hypertrophy cycle? what are the pros and cons of balking or cutting during strength or hypertrophy cycles cool? So I do have a number of thoughts on this, Ah, and I think that some of my thoughts on this matter are actually influenced recently by our boys zach, and Josh at day to German strength. So one of the things that uh, that they kind of mentioned in passing on the cycle was kind of in on the podcast was in relation to this idea. So essentially what what my belief system is influenced by by their input is that weight maintenance is best during a strength phase. You don't want to go up too much. You don't want to go down too much. You definitely don't want to be decreasing body weight because you're then going to lose muscle because you're not training in hypertrophic rep ranges, and you're going to see performance decrease more than likely if you're lifting sets of one two and three in a strength phase, Not to mention you don't have the nutrition backing to support you being in a strength phase and lifting really heavy weights, So I think the prevalence of injury would increase if you're lifting one's two and threes in a deficit as well. so the worst thing of all of these is to be an a deficit during a strength phase. Don't do that. Weight maintenance is best during a strength phase, but why wouldn't it be best in my opinion to be gaining weight in a strength phase? Because the, the, the reality is that if you gain weight in a strength phase, your strength will go up. So that's part of the reason that I don't like you gaining in a strength phase, because then your strength progress is almost like a facade. It's a

[aaron_straker]: 40:51

Sss.

[bryan_boorstein]: 40:52

result of the fact that mass moves mass, so I don't even know that you can be confident that those strengthins are yours to keep. They might just be a factor of you being in a mass. they might not be. You may have actually gained strength, but in the uh, desire to have better diagnostics. I think that being weight maintenance in the strength phase is best so that you can ensure that you, uh that your strength is yours, and also the fact that uh, the day to driven guys brought up is that you don't want your leverages changing, or the way that you feel squishy under a bar on a bench, or any of these things. that. If you're gaining weight, Um, in a strength phase, this will change the number of belt holes you have to use. It'll change the way you set up for a dead lift. or uh. how far the bar moves in your bench press. Like you know, twenty pounds on your body can make your bench press an inch, Um. smaller range of motion. So again, this could change the the strength inputs that you're getting. You're like, Oh, my bench is increasing. This is amazing. Well, you're actually just not using as much range of motion because you now weigh more. Um. So that would be kind of my general thoughts on the strength phase, which leaves us the hyperture Fe phase, and I think that the hypertrophy phase should just be titled the body recomposition phase, because whether you want to gain weight or lose weight, the hypertrovi phase is your friend. You can build muscle in a in a surplus. Yes, you'll gain a little fat too, but that's okay and you will have a better opportunity to retain muscle while you die it. If you're train ing in hyberjry rap ranges and training to build muscle, you will retain more muscle. so I really think that it is just the perfect time for intentional altering of body weeight, being an average, she facee gain, we lose weight, et Ctera, et C. Those are kind of my views on the matter. What do you think, Straker?

[aaron_straker]: 42:45

I mean, I could not agree anymore with everything you said. I mean, you really really hit the nail on the head. The one thing I guess I will share slightly is with the changing body weight north in a strength phase.

[bryan_boorstein]: 43:01

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 43:04

I think if your's talking about like a larger change, Yes, um, that has much more applicability, But I mean, let's say you're putting on like three pounds. Do we say like Hey, I want to gain three pounds. Should I not go through a strength phase? I'm not superc convinced that might be very practical, but like you, the number you putll out is twenty pounds like I think. Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 43:26

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 43:27

a hundred percent go to change your levers. You're going to be stronger because you have twenty more pounds. I think you know maybe four to five and under it has lesser applicability. Um, especially because like let's face it, Ga and muscle is not easy. right and let's say like okay. I'm going to do a an eight week hy, pertphy block. Now, like let's say you' a power lifting. Youre I'm going to do an eight week Hy, perjury block. Realistically how much muscle I' rebuilding in those eight weeks that you will keep you know if your weight comes back down

[bryan_boorstein]: 43:56

right,

[aaron_straker]: 43:56

or something, it's minimal. it. it. its just it's a long. It's a long game, so I, I definitely don't want to influence anyone to be like Okay. I'm in a strength block. I need to make sure my weight doesn't go up type of deal.

[bryan_boorstein]: 44:08

Mhm.

[aaron_straker]: 44:09

Um, but obviously, within reason, you know, maybe four to five pounds or something like that if you're trying to stay pretty close in terms of like an apples to Apple's comparison.

[bryan_boorstein]: 44:17

Yeah, Maybe weight maintenance is like the wrong phrase to use. like, maybe even like containing or main gaining

[aaron_straker]: 44:24

Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 44:25

would be the right turn Because you don't want to risk being in a deficit like that Would be really really the wrong idea. Like I said in the beginning, So just in the way of making sure that you don't air on the side of being below maintenance, you probably want to be slightly above maintenance. Um, so I don't think you need to be neurotic about like, Oh, my God, I gained a couple of pounds like my strength faces ruin now or like Are these gains even mine? Um, like you don't need to worry about that like I do think you know you. You like Aaron, said, three to five pounds over a strength phase. You know a number of three months, Like say, you gain a pound a month or something like that. Like perfect, like that's ideal because you're still within the range of maintenance. But but yeah, if you start going on like a bulk and you know you're like twenty pounds heavier and you're like My squat's up fifty pounds and my bench is up fifty pounds. This is amazing. You know best sting cycle ever. You're like Ah, maybe you're just getting twenty pounds A and your leverages changed. And um, yeah, so I think that you know you, you have to take each each individual case, case by case, But um, if you can be at a slight surplus during a strength phase that's great, and then, for any uh, more drastic increases or decreases in body weight, you know, hang out in the hyperchphe cycles.

[aaron_straker]: 45:35

the last thing I do in to a um. with specific um. relativity to your um. deficit, like Ban said, I'm just echoing it for for an additional um.

[bryan_boorstein]: 45:48

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 45:49

Profoundness, I should say, running a strength cycle during a calorie deficit, especially if you're trying to lose like a considerable amount of body fat or something like that, the risk of injury is is much higher. and that is something. I generally with one hundred percent try to steer people away from you are literally in controlled starvation. purposely giving your body less than it needs, so that it will catatealyze its own tissue for an energy substrate. Your microuutris are generally down. Your recovery

[bryan_boorstein]: 46:18

yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 46:18

capacity is down. like, be careful if you're doing these things, especially at maximum loads, and the three rap range type thing. Um, there is some research. I have seen it. I. It was years ago. I wish. I, um, would have thought about it for the episode, but I believe there's research on this as well. for uh. The prevalence of injury in periods of

[bryan_boorstein]: 46:38

mhm, Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 46:38

underfeeding, so just know that, and then, like Brian said, Like just those hypertrific rep ranges of are we realistically going to be adding muscle in A in a calorie deficit? Probably not, but just those repeated bouts of that stimulation to the the target musculature will help you retain as much muscle mass as you possibly can while you're going through your calorie deficit, which is literally the name of the game.

[bryan_boorstein]: 47:07

Y, Yeah, For sure, So that would be like. That's my answer to the strength and hypertph fe, cutting balking thing, and I'm glad that we that we have contact now. So when people ask about it we can be like just fast forward two minute thirty eight of this episode And there you have it

[aaron_straker]: 47:22

Yup, Perfect. Anything else for me, Briind before you wrap this one up.

[bryan_boorstein]: 47:27

now, Man, um, that was awesome is short, but I think it was productive.

[aaron_straker]: 47:31

cool. Yep, so as always, guys, thank you for turning into this episode of each train, Prosper and Brian and I will talk to you next week.