Data Driven Strength | ETP#37

[aaron_straker]: 0:29

Okayt, happy Tuesday, guys walking back to another episode of each train prosper today, Brian myself have two awesome guests. zach and Josh from D a different strength, and before we get into all the sweet topics we were going to talk about with them, I'm going to have them introduce themselves.

[josh]: 0:50

So, first of all, Aaron and Briryan, huge, thank you for having a son. I will say this is our least favorite part of of podcast is given the introduction here. Uh, but but but just briefly, uh, zach and I are both uh, research assistant at the muscle physiology lab here in Florida, Atlantic University. Um, zach, just uh started as Phd. I'm a. I'm a master student, so a lot of our time is spent in the lab there, Um, otherwise we're we power lifting coaches. We kind of work with people all the way up from, you know, national inter international level competitors, and we also have you know. kind of like some general population, just general strength and fitness clients as well. So um, we, like I said, we're power. We. We're typically working with power lifters but we just like lifting weights. Um, power lifting kind of found us. we, we, We, just like lifting weights. It turns out that a lot of people that like lifting weights do power of things, so that's kind of where where we've landed. Um, but yeah, that's a general overview of who we are and what we do,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:46

So is Y's background like you, pretty much found power lifting straight out of the gates when you first started lifting orcause. I mean, you guys speak about things with like a bit of a hyperch freee flare more than I hear people talk about in other facets of the industry. Like people that are more focused on on strength tend to just focus on strength. but you guys are constantly throwing the hypertrophy thing around. So how is your background with training?

[zac]: 2:13

I would say, I mean, definitely speaking for myself, and I think Josh is pretty similar. I to tell you both got into this primarily through sports, which I mean is a pretty standard kind of explanation of how people find lifting weights. But that was definitely the way that I. I kind of saw everything through initially was you know, how do I get faster? How do we get Um stronger for sports? Um, And so that kind of initially got me into looking to read stuff and everything. That's how originally I found West Side, Um. and kind of those kind of methods was where I kind of started and

[bryan_boorstein]: 2:40

Mmol.

[zac]: 2:42

you know maticulated my way down the the path that we all probably have. Um. and then you know you find you know hypertry training power lifting. it all kind of comes together and I think Josh and I like you said. Uh. Originally, we both just like lifting weights, so I think we both see ourselves like spending time very much on both sides of the aisle there, and I think Um, because of that lens, I think it allows us to see both of the problems if you put it in kind of quotes. There of strength and size, Um, and it may a little bit different light, and I think they compliment one another, Um, especially um, when we look to kind of work with our clients, so I think it kind of helps in both ways there. but I, My personal story is from definitely from sports vers, and kind of find our way into the objective nature of of power lifting from there

[josh]: 3:25

exact same.

[bryan_boorstein]: 3:27

Yeah, I remember, Uh, when I first started training too, like I, I always kind of biased toward lower rep ranges, just be cause they

[josh]: 3:35

Mhm.

[bryan_boorstein]: 3:35

don't hurt as much and I never really was good with the lactic acid accumulation thing, so I kind of started. I mean, I also started in sports, Uh, much like Striker did too, But I always was, was a fan of the lower raps and of the shorter work sets. And um, it's interesting. I. This wasn't even a question I had, but I wonder whether that's like something that, because maybe I have slightly more fast twitch dominant fibres like, maybe that was going to be something that I was going to veer towards no matter what. Um, whereas somebody else, that maybe with their sport was say more aerobic like they were a runner or a rower or something like that. Maybe they would have found more interest or benefit from like higher rep ranges, so I know Aarin can probably relate to that with the the football work that you were doing, and I was playing basketball and and other kind of anaerobic type sports.

[aaron_straker]: 4:25

Yeah, we didn't do a lot of high reps. And what what's funny is when you were

[zac]: 4:26

ssssssssssssss,

[aaron_straker]: 4:29

kind of talking like something, we got into lifting through sport. I didn't. I was at first introduced to to lifting through power lifting, but they didn't call it power lifting. But I mean we, we went and competed in powerfting and did single playly competitions, And I thought every high school football player across America did that and very far from the top, so it was very interesting shifting out of that to just like being a bro, and lifting weights and not having to put that squat suit on that, you know, bust the blood vessels and my legs and stuff

[bryan_boorstein]: 4:58

Yeah, well, I can, honestly, sorry. Go ahead.

[josh]: 4:59

I think I was just going to say, I think there is a ton of like self selection like you were saying,

[bryan_boorstein]: 5:04

Yeah,

[josh]: 5:04

Brian. Like, even within can of this niche of people that lift weights at least four times a week, and you're like, Oh, I'm not a super high. Like on a population level, you probably are at least a pretty good responder because you've seen enough to. Actually, you know, be encouraged to keep showing up. So I think you know that's like a very basic level self selection. And then you know fibre level specific stuff, you know, leverage specific stuff. It. It probably goes on and on and on of. Like you mentioned, Brian,

[bryan_boorstein]: 5:33

very interesting. Yeah, cool. well, we'll all jump into all of this in a little more detail. Should we do last seven days real quick, Stggerol, I w. I'll start this out. Um, I guess my diet is is mostly more or less over. I've been uh, progressing carbs linearally from last week into this week. I had about five progressively higher carb days, ending with about four hundred and fifty on the day before my photo shoot. So Sunday and uh, I think it worked pretty well Having think the photo shoot went well. We'll see when the photos all come out. Um, I am just excited to not be dieting anymore after four and a half months, which is a really great feeling. Erarins talked a lot about how his favorite nutritional periodization period of time is the period coming out of the diet and reversing and and increasing the calories and all that. So it's been

[aaron_straker]: 6:21

the recovery diet

[bryan_boorstein]: 6:25

like like, I just kind of saw my physique and I just I was flat all the

[zac]: 6:26

Ssssssssssssss,

[bryan_boorstein]: 6:30

time, so I was just like looking at myself compared to myself and and I was like Oh, I'm looking bettera. blah blah. And then you start adding the carbs in and you're like wait, shoulder veins, and like ad veins. Like what is going on here, So it's cool to be able to see the effect of the food that's going into your body and and how that impacts the way that you look like on a very acute basis. Um, so even the morning of the photo shoot, I woke up and felt really flat for some reason after four hundred and fifty carbs the night before. I don't know how I did, but I was and so what?

[aaron_straker]: 6:59

enough just wasn't enough.

[bryan_boorstein]: 7:01

No, I mean, either wasn't an offer. I just like slepted and got dehydrated and whatever, So I woke up and had you know, twenty five hundred milligrams of sodium and potassium and another two hundred and twenty carbs, and then like within an hour, uh, everything kind of came to life, So um, I, er, and I'm actually going to talk to you about this in the future. More about whether this means that maybe I'm a candidate for more of like, um, a more immediate, like a cute loading, like a a backload type thing, versus like a progressively nearar load. But I find that all really interesting and I'm sure it's stuff we can delve into next week when we don't have guests. Um, and then the last thing I'll say is that Uh, tomorrow Wednesday I head up to Fort Collins to go train with Uh, Albert, Unenias and minor, and they're going to be uh, generous enough to give me a little bit of a P physique assessment and let me know where I'm at and how far I might have to go if I were to don the The Speedo, and uh and present on stage, so we'll see what kind of feedback I get there, and uh, yeah, we'll update it next week on the episode. So, uh, what's up with your last seven days? Striker

[aaron_straker]: 8:06

Not much. I posted this very briefly on my story. I' am waiting to start my protocol, But there is like one thing I need to do first, and unfortunately there is a new Fedex saga in my life. I ordered some supplements from this company that I always order from, and I ams very shocked how quick they get here. It that chips from Kentucky. It's been twelve days now since it shipped in Kentucky. It's been here in Salt Lake since Thursday, just like glooping around doing God knows what at the Fedex facility, So it's like I don't know what's going on with Fedx here. But it is a massive problem. Like this is the sixth order in like the last month and a half that they just cannot seem to deliver. Um,

[bryan_boorstein]: 8:48

sucks

[aaron_straker]: 8:48

And it's not like I live in some weird spot like we're in a townhouse in the middle of the city, So I have no idea what's going on. Hopefully it's here today. I tried to like. Hey, I will come pick it up at the warehouse like I just want the damn package, but they just have like no idea where it is and like the people you talk to don't have a clue, so I'm just playing the waiting game and trying not to get super frustrated. Um, but to to give a little back story, Uh, zaach, and Josh before I would be ordering some uh over like overnight chicken from this place in New Jersey called the chicken Pound, Because I've just been in the streak of feeling lazy and I just don't want to food prep my own chicken. And three times in a row like the overnight delivery, Fedex took like four, five days to deliver in the chick of a Ch. like lukewarm. We just had to like. Keep trying and trying again. So I have been having like issues with Fedex. Um. So that's really been my only update, Um, transition and training four days per week. Uh, we, you've kind of settled into now, which generally, I kind of don't like as much, but I'm just taking it, um each week and then just filling and hiking, going on adventures on Sundays. but that's it for me.

[bryan_boorstein]: 9:53

that x is trying to hold down your macronutrient gas, dude messed up

[aaron_straker]: 9:56

Yeah, they're trying to do something.

[josh]: 9:57

Do do not have a crock pot. It's so easy to make chicken.

[aaron_straker]: 10:00

I, well, I live in an air. B. M. B's so

[bryan_boorstein]: 10:03

any travels and

[aaron_straker]: 10:04

yeah,

[josh]: 10:04

Oh, okay,

[bryan_boorstein]: 10:04

you't carry with and all

[josh]: 10:05

Oh, that's right. that's right.

[aaron_straker]: 10:05

yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 10:06

that stuff. Yeah, So what's going on with you guys that stuff. Yeah, So what's going on with you guys

[josh]: 10:08

I was going to say I just bag a frozen chicken Canas Sulsa eight hours Could to go

[bryan_boorstein]: 10:14

Like

[josh]: 10:15

go for zck.

[bryan_boorstein]: 10:15

you guys. Have anything good near last seven days? You want to update A on

[zac]: 10:18

My life is considerably less exciting. I'd say that the big wind for me, um passed is, so I actuallyllapsed my lung pretty pretty recently. Um, so I've been working back from that in terms of training in this past week, kind of feels like the first week I've been able to, you know, really, feel like I, I've been training again. I'm still rehabing my lower body a little bit, umm, working through some stuff there, but as far as like mober, body, been training my bench and my my chin upps, actually for for strength, and been able to put like a solid block of training and really feel like I'm I'm back to you know, having ideas when I train, get to experiment with some different stuff, like the the thing that drives us to have fun when we werere doing that, and that Um has significantly improved my kind of just day to day experience being able to. Look forward to training and not feel like

[bryan_boorstein]: 11:02

Mhm?

[zac]: 11:02

I'm uh, just climbing back to where I was all the time. so Yeah, grateful for that, Josh. what about you?

[josh]: 11:09

Go for Brian. If you were going to say something,

[bryan_boorstein]: 11:10

I was just going to ask if Chin upps, means that you're using a suuperinated grip or A? That is a yet again.

[zac]: 11:14

Yep, Yeah, idip,

[josh]: 11:17

Yeah, for me, I would say The the biggest thing in the last seven days is I feel like I've been more excited for training than I have been in a while. Um, so I've personally, I and I think z's kind of on a similar schedule. I've been getting in three training sessions a week for about seventy to eighty minutes. Um, just like with our our schedules with with academics and and trying to fit other stuff, maintain some degree of interpersonal relationships. Just been going first thing in the morning Monday Wednesday Friday, Um, trying to get something in and justcause, That's what's going to be the most sustainable with with our current schedules. Um, but Th things have been going well and I kind of noticed I was like, Hey, I'm kind of within striking distance in terms of being at my best numbers of all time. Um, which is which is exciting. Given like, I'm kind of sacrificing optimal, if you will to to to crawl rather than to run right now, Which which I'm accepting, Um, proactively, The The other thing within the Ne. The last seven days is, I've been kind of doing an audit of just tracking nutrition, so I typically don't track. Um. but I do like to you know, every six months every year

[zac]: 12:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[josh]: 12:26

track for a week. Just kind of check in and make sure that kind of what I'm

[bryan_boorstein]: 12:27

Mhm.

[josh]: 12:30

conceptualizing in my head still checks out. Um, So that's been something I've been doing this week, Um, and I think that gives some pretty good insights. Um, you know, if if you are kind of the person I would prefer not to track, kind of checking in doing an audit every every you know, every six to twelve months can be a really good move. So that's been helpful as well. But other than that, just trying to to to crawl, and accepting that, Uh training is an optimal, but it's still having fun with it.

[bryan_boorstein]: 12:55

Yeah, I have uh two, two comments on that. Actually, so, um, I also use kind of a a, a satity based, uh tracking route in

[josh]: 13:03

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 13:03

the in the off season, if you want to call it not like I have' in season, but um in the off season, I basically just track uh ballpark protein grams, a daily body weight and subjective s society, whether it's

[josh]: 13:16

I like that

[bryan_boorstein]: 13:16

like over, fed under, fed or satisfied, and I just have like an excele, and I just marked those three categories and it's so freeing because

[josh]: 13:24

Mhm, Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 13:24

Theti index in the body weight basically tell you if you're overeating or not, and then.

[josh]: 13:28

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 13:28

The protein just makes sure you're covering all your bases, so I think that works really well for people that at least are familiar with tracking and understand macro

[josh]: 13:35

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 13:36

newtreate profiles. but again to your point, it's like I wouldn't take that approach if I didn't at least

[josh]: 13:40

right

[bryan_boorstein]: 13:41

audit myself Every you know, six

[josh]: 13:42

right,

[bryan_boorstein]: 13:43

months or a year or whatever was. Um,

[josh]: 13:45

I like that

[bryan_boorstein]: 13:46

yeah, and then second thing I was going to say is you know you mentioned the three times a week being sub optimal in a way, but every time in my life that I've done a strength phase, I've found the highest rate of success on three times a week, and

[josh]: 13:59

interesting

[bryan_boorstein]: 14:00

I wonder if that's got anything to do with uh, proximity failure. And this is going to be a big, a big chunk of what we talk about today,

[josh]: 14:07

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 14:08

But just because it's on the top of my head right now, Um, I wonder if like if you have seventy to eighty minutes. Are you spending a lot of that time working sub failure? Like a lot of the stuff that you guys have been researching and talking about recently where maybe you have to do more sets? So you're not actually fitting as many like raps close to fatigue or whatever into

[josh]: 14:27

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 14:27

your seventy eighty minutes, Verus working closer, Fe. And getting more out of that time. Some make sense,

[josh]: 14:32

Yeah, I think that makes that makes perfect sense, so I would. S that the answer would be. it depends on kind of the primary goal of the the training phase. I'm in Um, and in general when I shift goals, so when I shift from more of like a Hey, this is going to be a muscle growth biased phase versus more of a strength biased Pa. strength biased phase. I don't really see any changes in in session time. Um. I do do more sets in the strength bias phase. Each sets a little bit further from failure, and as a result, I can uh, take a little bit less rest period between sets. Um, so what I typically do is I'll just get like I'll I'll hook it up so that I hear the velocity in my headphone while I'm training, Let's say I have eighty percent for four triples. I'll kind of get an idea of on that first set. Okay, the first rep, Uh of the first set. That's when I'm going to be the freshest. Let's say it's point three, five meters per second. I'll say okay. I don't want to see this go down. you know a ton, so I'll just kinda aut to regulate my repards. Make sure I'm not getting down to like point two, four point two five. Okay, that set was a little bit slower than I want. I'm going to take an extra twenty seconds for that next rest period, so I kindaought to regulate it that way, whereas in a hypertry focused phase, Um, you know, typically less sets slightly longer rest period and I'm really focused on r r r

[bryan_boorstein]: 15:50

Mhm, Mhm,

[josh]: 15:50

accuracy, so I'm less worried about that immediate, um, that immediate velocity feedback and just trying to make sure that Um, I'm getting to the desired r r r,

[bryan_boorstein]: 16:00

And you're using velocity in the hypertrophy phases as well with the the beeps in the microphone are in the headphones.

[josh]: 16:07

so I typically don't do it within the set. I typically just look at it after, so I'll kind of take a look at the the Lastra of velocity. take a look at my uh, r p. E that I thought it was, and kind of see if it checks out. Um, some days, all or or most days. I'm kind of spot on. Like Okay That velocity checks out with my P. Some days I'm like Okay, you know, I'm Myacy is a little bit off for that day, but yeah,

[zac]: 16:31

Good. good example of the Um. kind of how much work you can get done using these kind of different approaches? Uh, for me, I just did on Monday in like a period of like twenty thirty minutes. I did like seven triples on bench with like eighty percent and then I did in the like an agtagonistic super set. I was doing chin upps, like seven sets of five. Um, in the same time, take my twenty thirty minutes. Like on paper, it's a lot of sets. but in reality that's probably a similar amount of work you could get done if you just kind of flip that to like four sets to pretty close to failure, and with like three minute rest period. So it, it's in our experience is pretty similar so long as you understand that you have to stay on task. Like when you're doing taking this approach like that's really the main thing when we kind of talk about this is like. well, people like, Oh man, you're going got to be trained for four hours. It's like no, but you do have to like. Understand that, like taking only thirty, uh, ninety second rest periods requires a little bit more. Um, you know, mental, Uh, focus to be able to make sure you' hitt your hand your sets on the appropriate time to make sure you're not staying in the gym for way too long.

[aaron_straker]: 17:33

I, a quick follow

[bryan_boorstein]: 17:34

Yeah, St.

[aaron_straker]: 17:35

up question for you. Dsh, You mentioned something around the velocity being reported in your headphones, Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

[josh]: 17:42

yeah, so I use a device called the truve. So what it is is it's basically this little box that goes on the ground and there's a string that attaches to the bar bell and it also has an app, so the the The encoder can hook up via Blue tooooth, to the app and then I can hook up my phone to my headphones. If you have a rep one. It does the same thing and I can set it so that after every single rep it tells me how fast it was, So after every rep once it registers a repetition, it will tell me the velocity, and uh, this little s sounding voice will go, point three, two or point three. Whatever the case may be,

[aaron_straker]: 18:23

I have seen those. actually. That's very cool.

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:25

I actually been really debating buying one. I feel like it's a good investment for for the future, you know, just to have. Yeah,

[zac]: 18:30

If you like to Tnker, man, it's It's just another thing

[josh]: 18:32

Yeah,

[zac]: 18:32

to

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:32

it's right up

[zac]: 18:33

kind of look at. Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:35

right up my alley. Manly.

[aaron_straker]: 18:36

The one thing I think is really interesting. I'm one of those people who my subjective perception of my rap speed is much different than if I video it be cause I'll be like. Oh

[josh]: 18:43

Mhm,

[aaron_straker]: 18:44

my God, that set was like brutal and then Ill look at it and

[josh]: 18:47

yep,

[aaron_straker]: 18:48

it. it doesn't

[josh]: 18:48

yp.

[aaron_straker]: 18:49

look like it from this video so that' that is really cool.

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:52

Yeah,

[josh]: 18:53

Yeah, I think if you have, if you, if you have a video, and if you have a training partner to kind of keep you honest. I think that stuff will get you ninety nine percent of the way there, the velocity can be the the cherry on top. I, I'd say ninety seven percent of the way there. If um, if you train alone, Philosphy can be helpful, a little bit more helpful. but um, but yeah, it's

[zac]: 19:15

I would add, having regular experience like training very close or to failure is also going to. you

[josh]: 19:16

same idea in terms of video feedback.

[zac]: 19:20

know, further

[josh]: 19:20

Yeah,

[zac]: 19:21

bias that percentage upward. if you have a really good sense of anchoring. What like a true one, r, R is? that's going to you know further, allow you to register how far you are from failure. But if you are kind of just you know somebody that hasn't had a period in their training that's regularly done that. I think velocity is is a little bit more um advantageous than that. in that case,

[bryan_boorstein]: 19:39

for sure. Yeah, if you have the experience, you can feel it slow down and you know that it's happening, Um, cool. Well, I have a. Uh, I guess so I was listening to T. s podcast the first topic yesterday, and uh and z gave me a shout out. It was super cool. so basically what happened was Uh. They were talking about Uh, training at long muscle lengths and whether they ever use like partial range of motion And this is something that Straker and I have been talking a lot about on the podcast recently, and we talked about with with Helms when he was on. And uh, so as zach noted, I have been doing a lot of this on movements that are overloaded in the shortened position, like Le extensions and pull downs, and a lot of things you guys referenced on your podcast. And Uh, one of the things you said zach was that Uh, it's a cool way to have F and like mix it up or whatever, and that you've been using it with yourself and with clients, so I was curious. Just if you have anything to any feedback from both yourself and your clients beyond, it's kind of cool and fun. you know, like what the experience has been like

[zac]: 20:37

well, I, I mean from a theoretical basis, I think it has a really sound. you know reason why you're doing it. I think you know we've had emerging evidence to the point now where I'm pretty darn and convinced we just had another study that came out in the bicepts showing pretty meaningful, um. high pertphy that came from training at a longer musclength, and comparison to a shorter one. I, I mean, at this point I think that's something we definitely need to take into account like one very tangible example I've kind of conceptualized for me is like for somebody's bicepts training. Um, you know the standard kind of core movement You might, you might train as like a Barbll curl. Um, I would probably shift that more towards like an incline. curl. now, Um, as kind of the the money maker there. And and something to really you know, care about your performance and really track. finally, Um, I, I think that's a really tangible difference, but in general I think it's just coming from sound principles. Um, of you know, maybe we can use these exercises that are generally a little bit less fatiguing. Um, not taxing as many joints, but they come with the Conan con, I guess in, in some aspects of being challenging in a shorter muscle length. But if we can, you know, artificially use some of these strategies to also challenge it at a long muscle length. Maybe we can get the benefits of you know, not taxing your back in a hack squat, let's say, but also be able to challenge the Cds at long muscling with the leg extension. I. we kind of get the best of both worlds. Now, The one thing uh, to keep in mind is like I, I don't want to be. you know. Oh, okay, long muscle lengths are all that matters. There's absolutely no benefits of training in a shorten position at all. I don't think we have the evidence to say that. Um.

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:08

right,

[zac]: 22:09

I think you know regional purte is the first thing that comes to mind that. I'm sure there is some degree of of that that occurs. Um. you know, challenging at shorter muscle Leks, maybe a little bit farther down the quad. for example, Um, but yeah, I, I think it's just a. It's a sound principal. Um, you know based approach that I think just makes a lot of sense. and especially for back movements was the first thing that I thought was like abundantly obvious be cause there's not a great setu for. Um, you know, a lengthened back movement from just kind of general equipment. Um, and so yeah, I just I think it's a cool idea and I was. I was glad I saw you doing that be cause I was. I was like, Oh man, yeah, this makes sense. I, I tri it myself and have had a few clients suit as well, and like I said, pretty pretty positive, Um experiences thus far

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:53

very cool. Yeah, and then I'll just add real quick that I think that using more of those short range overload movements, maybe even without the partials, would potentially have more applicability in like a period of time where you died, or uh, don't have sufficient recovery capacity right, so I know like everyone one does that they'll bias their training a bit more toward like those short range overload movements with a little less on the length and overload when you're in a deficit, and then when you're in the surplus, you know you have more recovery capacity you can kind. Of ramp that up a little bit.

[josh]: 23:25

that's That's exactly what I was going to say to kind of follow up with what's Acc said. is that Um, you know, kind of the the thaw process here, or or one one of the thought processes here Is that in general people feel like they can do a good amount of sets with their back before they kind of feel like Okay. I'm I'm kind of at that weekly training volume where you know, I'm kind of in that sweet spot. Um, but you know a lot of those movements are hardest when the muscles are a shorten position, and that seems to be a little bit less fatiguing. Um, each of those sets, so if you do take this approach of okay, I'm going to do my lap pull downs, and then once I can't bring it all the way down to my chests, I'm going to kind of do lengthen partials right, and then kind of anchor my zero r i r. At the point where I can't get to you know, whatever, half way down or whatever, you standardize it as. Um. If you take that approach, you're going to you'. you're not going to have the same set volume tolerance, So that's very important to keep in mind. Um, so like for me, training four hours a week. That's a great approach because I'm able to, I think get more bang from my bookck. Um again, we're we're going off some research That that's kind of building right now. Um, we'll see maybe a changes, but it seems to be make a good amount of sense right now.

[bryan_boorstein]: 24:36

Yeah, it definitely feels good. striker. Any thoughts?

[aaron_straker]: 24:40

No, I mean, it makes perfect sense to me, especially what Uh, Joshua is saying aboutcause. Everyone kind of feels that way back and take so much more volume ins, largely because so much of your back movements are shorted overlooked.

[zac]: 24:53

bises adult similar story.

[aaron_straker]: 24:55

Mhm. Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 24:56

y? yep? Yeah, that's an interesting idea. To think of the the inclined dumbbell curl as like your primary. like overloading byse movement, because it is for sure the most damaging. I mean you're going

[aaron_straker]: 25:05

it's brutal

[josh]: 25:06

Mhm, Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:06

to get. Yeah, it's It's awful and like when you fail you fail it like you would fail. Like a back squat. like you literally just can't get out of the bottom. You just get stuck to.

[josh]: 25:15

yep,

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:15

You're like. Oh shit. I don't know how that happened.

[josh]: 25:17

y.

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:18

Um, so yeah, that's interesting and and I love that movement. I wish there was more possible ways that you can do a bise curl with the elbows behind youcause. It's literally like the biesian

[zac]: 25:28

Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:29

curl, Bejian curl or

[josh]: 25:30

yp.

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:30

whatever you say, And then it's that and I can't think of like too many other ways that you can do it.

[josh]: 25:35

this is what Sack and I talk about while we trained so we're on the same page, Man.

[zac]: 25:37

we like man should make a machine that you know, does back movements in a length of position and some bices

[josh]: 25:43

we just picked up a. we just picked up a leg extension and like an option is to you know, do lengthen partials once. You kind of can't get it all the way

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:50

Yeah,

[josh]: 25:51

up, but we're like trying to play with the machine and make it so that it is hard at the bottom right off the back. kind of like

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:56

Mhm,

[josh]: 25:56

adjust the the levers of the likecause. It's a free weight machine, so we've been playing around with that stuff so Brie, we're on the same page. Do you think of any ideas? Uh, definitely let us know

[bryan_boorstein]: 26:05

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 26:06

unfortate. Go ahead. No,

[bryan_boorstein]: 26:07

I have. sorry. Go ahead, uh, on my leg extension machine, you can change the resistance curve because

[josh]: 26:13

it's awesome.

[bryan_boorstein]: 26:13

it's like a cam machine, you know, But

[josh]: 26:14

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 26:15

the problem is because I think it's like a home model or whatever. Is that if I overload it in the bottom position, then I forcefully explode up, and I get so

[josh]: 26:23

M,

[bryan_boorstein]: 26:24

much power going through it that it actually sends the the leg extension piece all the way around into like a semicircle And I'm like I can't even overload this at the

[zac]: 26:32

Yp.

[bryan_boorstein]: 26:32

bottom. You know, So it's not perfect strigger.

[aaron_straker]: 26:35

what I was going to say is I'm fortunate the gym here has like um, some a man. I't I don't know. I don't know the make of the machine be cause. it's like super old, but's's a. it's a preacherl. preach your bicecle, but there is the three locations to place your weight so I can like overload the lengthen,

[bryan_boorstein]: 26:51

like the prime machines

[aaron_straker]: 26:51

Um. And I, yeah, but I mean this. I guarantee this things at least twenty thirty years old.

[zac]: 26:56

I had one of those at my gym in my hometown and I, I trained out in high school, and of course, at the time I had no idea how nice it was was like man, This seem nice. You could change the plates and stuff seem cool. Just you know.

[aaron_straker]: 27:06

Yeah,

[zac]: 27:06

You get your thirty sets of failure in one session. Just say, going back and forth all the plates out, but those those machines are super co.

[aaron_straker]: 27:13

y, and that's exactly what I'll do. I'll take like I'll push like two. When I do use it, push two hard sets in the length and overload, and then I'll do like one at the shorten. and it's

[josh]: 27:22

yp, yp,

[aaron_straker]: 27:22

smoked's

[bryan_boorstein]: 27:25

right? All right? Well, officially I have a first question for you you. We've kind of already almost kind of breezed over a lot of this. but if you guys have any additional things you want to say before we jump into further questions about kind of where you stand on the difference between training for strength or hyperrophy, and how proximity, failure and volume might be considerations that you think about in those those two arenas,

[josh]: 27:51

I'll kick it off and then you, uh, clean up anything I mess up, so right off the bat, I would say that word of the opinion that good high peretry training is also good strength training. Um, at least in the long term, right, so in other words, we spend a good amount of time just focusing on. Hey, we got. we got to make sure those Ordl execution is is spot on. We got to make sure thatl r P. Accuracy is spot on as well, so that's the first thing I'd say right off the bat. and then the difference is between the two. At least the way that we like to program. Do

[zac]: 28:25

I issssssssssss.

[josh]: 28:28

largely come down to approximate to failure. Um. Now you do have the loading component right, like in general, you're goingnna wa to be touching heavy loads. Um. you know average intensity as well, can go up when you're focusing on strength. Um, but for strength athletes, we basically keep that in year round, so that's not a huge change when we kind of shift from a hy perty focus to a strength focus because you're already hitten, you know, eighty five percent plus on a regular basis just to kind of maintain that skill. But anyway, when we do transition to a more strength focused phase, let's say somebody's whatever, six to eight weeks out from a A A meet. What we will do is will kind of make each set in isolation a little bit further from failure, but typically add more sets. Um. So if you were doing uh, whatever, eighty percent for sets of five. for example, let's say that lands most people around, Uh, five, two and nine, r, p. E. Maybe we do eighty percent for a bunch of trip or triples or doubles instead in a strength focused phase, So what that allows us to do is kind of actually get the average velocity higher across those repetitions that are completed, which on the surface sounds counter intuitive, right, A one re max is slow. We wantnna, you know we want to practice being slow and that's true to some degree, but you also have to think about the force you're producing on those repetition. so you know, as you kind of fatigue with an a set, your ability to produce maximum force is going to decrease. So what we're what we're saying is okay. Let's let's kind of like take these little mini rests if you will. Well, they, they are proper re periods, but like un enough that you need to kind of recover for that next repetition. Keep that force production high, Still get in your training volume. Um, but avoid those, uh, large, decreases in forced production that occur within a set, so in general proximity, failure is what we really focus on in terms of like over a twelve week training cycle right, going from a high perrchue phase to a strength phase that we shift. Um. That's kind of the the high level summary. zck'll kick it over to you if if you have any additional commons.

[zac]: 30:24

Yeah, I just lean up a few things, but I

[josh]: 30:26

S. issssssssssssssssssss.

[zac]: 30:26

mean obviously that's the the kind of the overroaching principle. One, um, while the kind of the average r, r, r, average r, P may change, it's important to know that's always in the context of those heavy sets that Josh mentioned So like one thing that people sometimes get from what're advocating for is like you're just doing a bunch of fast reps and you have no practice for what a third tempt would be a, in a power lifting meat. Um, that's not true. We definitely always advocate for the foundation of a strength program is those heavy exposures to to high loads and high r. Ps. And the reason the the r p is rising, it's not because you're getting tired throughout the set simply because the load on the bar is so heavy. And so that's the. That's the kind of two different ways of set Can be challenging is because it's a load mediated, or it's fatigue mediated.

[bryan_boorstein]: 31:13

Mhm,

[zac]: 31:13

And when we are in a strength phase we primarily want it to be the former rather than the latter. Um. so that's kind of the overarching concept there in in in understanding that there are benefits to training with high r Ps. but for strength like I said, we wanted to be that load mediatated so we get things like psychological comfort to very high exertions. The Um. the familiarity with shifting of loading demands under very heavy loads and maximal attempts. A third attempt squat is not the same exercise as doing sets of three was seventy percent. We're well aware of that and so we want to make sure you have adequate practice to doing those third attempts with very high loads. that. like I said, it's essentially a different exercise. When you're putting yourself under those demands, the hips are going to kick back a little bit. You're going to have to level the bar with your back, Su. and that's what we want to do so we can lift the most weight and so just making sure that we're familiar with those conditions. Um, aside from that, I would say the other thing, for you know training for purely high perchfy, you'd want to make sure you accomplish as there are those biaricul muscles that we're going want to make sure that're hiting with slightly different exercise selection for a power lifter. We may not focus on that as much. you know. leg extensions are definitely a good tool, especially if we do. Um, some of the things we were talking about earlier in terms of manipulating the muscle lek for training, but in

[aaron_straker]: 32:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[zac]: 32:27

general, um, the recus for mors doesn't isn't as big of a concern for a power lifter, Whereas a person optimizing their physique want to make sure their their calfras is probably both seated and standing. Want to make sure we're getting in the the leg extensions, making sure that we're you know adequately, Um. training the side delts things like that. Um, so you could see a little bit of a difference there in terms of the accessory work. While you know a lot of the people that we coach still want to, you know, have some physique development, and so will' include a good amount of that kind of work as well, I would say for a power lifter, You know if all they cared about is piloing performance, One way we like to kind of phrase. The excessive work is just training for low tolerance and making sure your your elbows your your shoulders, your your knees are all able to tolerate the the amount of training necessary to really push the three power lifts. Whereas somebody for physic development, you know, we're going to want to make sure, like you said Brian. we're going to stretch it from the length, and and the shorten position hit it from all angles, hit the bioicular muscles and make sure those are all adequately challenged to really push the physique rather than just supporting. Really, Uh, you know adequate power lifting training, so I think that's the the two things that come to mind for me, Primarily Joshu. not thought anything else, but that's kind of where where I'm at.

[bryan_boorstein]: 33:37

Striker thought cool. So you guys kind of uh, jumped on to both my question number two and question number three in that answer, but we' going to roll with it and see if you have anything else to add That that wasn't covered. Uh. In that initial statement, we know that the development of strength is a skill that there's neural pathways learning pathways that play a large role. right. So what type of neural complications might occur if the strength athlete is constantly grinding through tough Rpscause, Like you mentioned. The importance of them feeling these tough raraps and how a back squat and a third attempt is a different movement than a back squat in a first attempt. But are there like complications if people are constantly training this way as far as like compensations that might be occurring along the way, et cetera, et Ctera. What do you think about as far as that pertaining to those is

[aaron_straker]: 34:26

ssssssssssssss.

[josh]: 34:27

So I have a standard answer and then I kind of have like a personal experience in something that I've also kind of picked up along the answer. I'll start with the latter, circle back to the the. The former. So for me personally and I've noticed this with some athletes, particularly taller athletes again, totally anecdotal here. but when like when you're fatigued I notice that it's a lot harder to get into like the positions you want to for squapbnch, and deadlift for me personally. When I'm fatigued much harder for me to get to squad deth, much harder for me to to get to in in good

[bryan_boorstein]: 34:58

Mhm.

[josh]: 35:01

position for a deadlift. so I think that is a a potential complication of just positioning. Uh. positioning sacrifices. Um. but the more standard answer would be like Hey, we're just trying to balance the amount of fatigue that a given protocol generates and the stimulus right. In general, we want those heavy exposures to to tops sets, maybe single at eight, Uh, single at d, P. Nine, and that type of thing, Uh, but that's going to come with. You know some fatigue that's going to come with more fatigue than a single to seven. but we want to practice a single to nine, a single to ten to some degree right, So it's just finding that balance and I think another really important thing to uh, keep in mind is that that's going to be different between individuals. Your ability tolerate a given training protocol, so in in, in my view, it's a total balancing act between how much fatigue is generating for the individual. How important is it for them to get this particular exposure? and then we can kind of work backwards from there.

[zac]: 35:56

I think the way that I interpreted that question, Brian, Tell me from Bas. Why? based on all the things we just said, Why would we not just do thirty singles at ten throughout the week if we were training for strength? What is what is the complication there that that precludes us from doing that? And I guess the things that come to mind for me is you know. Obviously, the things that Josh had on. Um. the second thing was, you know, the amount of practice that seems to like contribute to these positive strength adaptations doesn't seem to be a to. So we just had the the recent

[aaron_straker]: 36:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[josh]: 36:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[zac]: 36:26

Um, you know Phd project from Pack, who looked like the minimum effect of training dose for pushing strength and power lifters. And man it, it seems like just doing one max a week can get you pretty good results in pretty trained people. And so I think that's the first thing is like when we are looking for that bang for buck, cost benefit analysis For these like really heavy sets. it seems like a really small dose is going. Allow us to get a majority of the benefit from those sets. And so then the question becomes okay. We start doing two, three, four, five exposures to those per week. Um, are we really getting that much more juice from that level of strength adaptation and in our experience and again, this's just speak anecdotally. I think once you have those kind in the program, I think Hammer and that nail doesn't necessarily seem to get you. You know a considerably greater result. Once you are familiar with that heavy exposure, you get a decent

[bryan_boorstein]: 37:14

Hey,

[zac]: 37:14

amount of practice hammer. In that same nail doesn't seem to result in exponentally greater strength adaations and there's pretty meaningful diminishing returns. So then the next question becomes Okay. What there avenues of this strength equation can we attack, and in our experience that's where you know high pertphy is definitely going to be a a big contributor to that long term. And then it just comes to how can we accumulate the training volume necessary to acquire sufficient skill practice and a non fatiguing way and drive high perchfy long term. That doesn't affect those big heavy tops setts that we are think going to primarily drive the strength adaptation in the short to moderor term. And that's where we kind of come to this proximity failure equation. We can still train with relatively high volumes. We might drop it a little bit, depending on the loads we're using all that good stuff. but for the most part we can keep our volumes relatively high, which should be good for a purchas. For a long term, allow us to maintain a lot of the skill practice we've we've accumulated and and and build our strength with, and then it doesn't affect the performance of those tops sets. so we can really push those um. and make sure our peak intensity is really up to par with what we're ultimately. trying to maximize Um. The only other thing I'll speculate, and again, this is not um. Super evidence based just something I've noticed Anecdot really training in a super high fatigue state might harm things like rad, a force development, which for you know, hitting a maximum attempt for one. our ability to overcome a heavy load prior to fatiguing. That might be, might be important on testy. So getting in a really really fatigue state might harm things like that. That probably isn't ideal. So that's another reason why we might want to try to um, kind of spurse the fatigue in in some other ways.

[bryan_boorstein]: 38:53

anything to add?

[aaron_straker]: 38:54

No, I mean all that stuff just claified some things for me that I, you know, kind ofotally realized about myself and strength cycles. And so

[bryan_boorstein]: 39:02

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 39:02

so it's pretty cool just to get like a a closure on that. I guess,

[bryan_boorstein]: 39:06

I can definitely say that, especially on deadlift to your point, Josh that like if I have even one rep where positioning isn't perfect and like, maybe I go into like a little bit of fection as I'm coming up or something. I could drop a hundred pounds off the bar and I still can't get into like perfect position. After that. It's like it caused so much fatigue through that spinal column that is just unable to be set until I like recover that again a few days later, or whatever it is.

[josh]: 39:32

Yeah, that can definitely be trainable as well, like just exposing yourself to that position. But I totally agree, like some people are just going to be Um, more sensitive to a given position than others And I think that is downstream programming factsz.

[bryan_boorstein]: 39:47

So how often in like over the year of a macrocycle or whatever, How often are you guys taking a an r, P, E, nine point five or higher, single rep? Is it just in like testing and and competition, or is there actually time like Throughout a training year where you'll where you'll throw those in?

[zac]: 40:12

Yeah, I think. Uh, this, you know, hugely, individual dependent question, and I would say, lift dependent too. Um, you know, I

[bryan_boorstein]: 40:19

Yeah,

[zac]: 40:19

pretty frequently have people hidden near max bench singles pretty frequently. sometimes times per week. Um, just because that seems to be tolerated and bench is

[aaron_straker]: 40:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[zac]: 40:29

really really sensitive To jump in from an eight and a half to a nine and a half to a ten. It just isn't the same ball game. You get. you get a little bit of that, you know,

[bryan_boorstein]: 40:36

Mhm,

[zac]: 40:38

arch collapse, so the range of motion is slightly higher. You know things like that, just change the angles just enough where you know it's It's very easy to say that you know the power lifts aren't complicated. You know there's not you know. the technical. Uh, you know, prowess necessary is not the same as the Olympic lifts, But Um, you know, My tier sheer is is you know he's He's set a lot of times. There's a little mini skills that go into those Um. Lifts, especially at maximum weights that take you know, regular exposures to really fit, figure out and refine over time, and I think the bench press is especially Um. the case there, Um for for the other two lifts, I would say it's a little bit more sparingly, Um, mostly because you're dealing with two a a lower body, Um. Exposure to those intensities, uh, on two different lifts, so I, I think that's something to balance, but in general I think the thing that makes it probably a little bit different In my, in my case is that the way that your technique changes under those very maximal loads, it just seems to result in fatigue. That's not the same in the bench breass. When I, you know, drop range em moion on my bench press it, it doesn't seem to cause like lasting lower back soreness like you like you talked about. Whereas if I'm taking a dead lift in a position that I haven't trained, like Josh said, like a little bit more lower back flction. Just anecdotally. that seems to to result in significantly greater um. fatigue and and losses of performance in a bench of rests wood. So I think that's just something to note. Um. But yeah, over nine and a half, I would say for me is is going to be reserved for testing in most cases, which should be like generally, three mets a year for somebody, um, uh, for the lower body lists, but maybe a little more frequently on bench press. but I do think that's individual dependent where I've had some people that just need to need to know what it feels like to to hit those heavy weights a little bit more frequently, and that might come into the rotation a little bit more.

[josh]: 42:25

I told you agree, and zach, I think you maxed out your bench five days a week for multiple weeks for a while. Is that correct?

[zac]: 42:31

Yeah, so I, I did kind of a Bulgarian asic thing on my bench where Id like max out five days a week was totally fine. I got really really good at hitting the same weight really slow. but my, my actual max in increase A Tony went up a little bit, But you know I did that for about I was a little over a month, so I was Maxim

[bryan_boorstein]: 42:49

okay,

[zac]: 42:50

about five times five times a week,

[josh]: 42:51

Yeah, totally individual would crumble

[bryan_boorstein]: 42:54

yeah, but a bench press is definitely like a significantly less fatiguing movement than one of the axiial loaded ones, So it

[josh]: 43:00

Mhm, Surely,

[bryan_boorstein]: 43:00

is like it does make sense. It's like Are you going to do it on a bent over row or a lateral race? Like? Yeah, you could probably anyway. Bad analogy. Um, do you have anything to add to that, Josh?

[josh]: 43:11

now I would just really really echo how individual dependent

[bryan_boorstein]: 43:14

Yeah,

[josh]: 43:14

it is. I have an athlete who is my top three in his country for a bench press, and he does multiple bench only meets per year, so he's very good at bench pressing these very high. Just training tolerance for bench press. We can hit five singles a week, sometimes up as as high as nine and a half. I wouldn't make. All five of those are peut and a half, but, but some exposure that high, Whereas other guys just can't handle that again. It's going to be trainable to some degree, Um. in the sense of Hey exposed, exposing yourself to it more and more will help. But just in general it is very very individual. My experience.

[bryan_boorstein]: 43:56

erd, anything that right? cool.

[aaron_straker]: 43:57

Nope. nothing for me on now.

[bryan_boorstein]: 43:59

So uh, this is this. Re. question's going to require you to conjecture a little bit, but um in the putting options back on the table piece, which was really good. these guys wrote it and they did a podcast about it. Basically, the idea of the piece was kind of pushing for the I for being able to do sets further from failure, and that you can still grow and or gain strength with with you know seven r i r, or whatever. So my question

[zac]: 44:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[aaron_straker]: 44:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[bryan_boorstein]: 44:26

here, and I don't know that there is an an actual answer to this, but I like to make sense of it using the effective reps model where you know you have one person that's doing six sets to failure. So with five effective reps per set, you'ressentially getting like thirty effective reps with with success to failure, and then by the same token you could have somebody that maybe does fifteen sets. but they do them to three reps from failure. So you're getting you know two effective reps each set. So you, now you're still also at thirty effective reps. So in my head that feels clean and it makes sense and it's beautiful and

[josh]: 45:00

Mhm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 45:00

I can put it in boxes, and and whatever, whatever what you guys are saying, So now we have this idea of like You know what, Maybe like you could just do seven sets of three with like a ten r, M. So now we're talking like seven r I, r, six r r, or something along those lines, which means you don't have a single effect of rep theoretically in there, So how can we make sense of this idea so that I can put it in a pretty little box and put it on my shelf and be like Okay. Here's how many sets of three I need at ten r. M. to make up for x amount of sets to failure or whatever you know. Like. How can we just kind of put some context around that

[josh]: 45:37

so well, I think we can definitely provide some heuristics that we kind of go by. Um. what I would say is that well, well first, I'll kind of touch on the effective reps thing. I think it like the effective effective reps concept has to be true to some degree right. I think it's I think basically everybody would agree At this point. it's not black and white. Once you get to the you know five r P all way up to ten, then you can uh start counting. But it has to be true at some

[bryan_boorstein]: 46:09

Mhm?

[josh]: 46:09

point right, But I would just say two things. It's It's probably further from failure than we think. Um, and it's also probably like a sliding scale on a repetition of a repetition basis. It's very unlikely to be Uh. You know, an on or an off switch. Another To keep in mind is it's probably going to be Uh. Like how far from Tr? How far

[aaron_straker]: 46:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[josh]: 46:31

from failure? You kind of reach a rough effort threshold where the reps really start to count. It's probably going to be dependent on the nature of the exercise. right? Is it a compound movement? Is it an isolation movement? What muscle length is is the? Is it hardest at Um? Are you using maximal concentric content? or are you just kind of

[bryan_boorstein]: 46:48

Mhm,

[josh]: 46:50

like coasting through the set? All these factors are going to influence it Now. Putting the nuance aside from more of a general heuristic point of view, What the way that I like to think about is once the lotus like a ten to a twelve rat, max, Um, or heavier. I think you're kind of in that effective range more or less for hy, pertphy, Right If if you have a tenorant max load on the barn, you do a set oftd of failure. Do I think that first rep is going to be as effective as the eighth ninth tenth? Probably not. but I don't think it's night and day right. And you all. there are also benefits. Be uh of those wraps earlier in the set, especially for strength right, and also probably from a fatigue perspective right, So from a a high perchy, only a perspective I think Doing you know, sets of five with your ten rat macks load, and doing a little bit more Sa, accumulating a little bit more volume. Um, I think that can be a totally fine way to go, and just based on you know, kind of a strict effective reps model, you might be getting zero effective reps per set. but I think that can still be a meaningful hypergef stim. So Um, that's kind of my general heuristic is if the load is heavy enough, Um, right off the bat, you're probably getting a pretty good training stimulus. Now, to be clear, this is my opinion, and and is some conjecture, Um. we could be proved wrong by by research in the coming years. But that's kind of where where I'm sitting right now

[zac]: 48:13

trying to decide how speculative I want to get here. Um,

[bryan_boorstein]: 48:17

very speculous, super spacular,

[zac]: 48:19

so

[josh]: 48:20

go for a

[zac]: 48:21

I think.

[josh]: 48:21

minute. Just be clear. At's your opinion,

[zac]: 48:22

Yeah, now it's very much my opinion, so huge. here's a grain assault. Make sure you

[aaron_straker]: 48:26

Ssssssssssssss,

[zac]: 48:29

look at it. Really conceptualize that Um. So the one assumption that the effect of Rep smalll makes that I think is at least like it's based on sound reasoning. as far as I can tell it. And maybe just the way that we get there is slightly different. Um is essentially the reason the reps are effective, right is is we get full mod inor recruitment, and those motor units inervate the fibers that seem to to elicit the the most amount of adaptation in terms of muscle size, and and also the biggest, and produce the most force. The way that this could work in my opinion is that, like Josh said, it's probably not one to one in terms of the comparison these reps a r A are, and I think that can probably be slightly evidenced by a new study that we have. That doesn't seem quite the same regional hypertphy, Uh, with a group training like cluster singles at eighty five percent versus a group training like four sets to failure with eighty five percent overall. The growth. I think you could argue it either way, but in my opinion, I think that probably leans slightly towards the group training close to failure. Um. In terms of regional perchphe, that's only one study to be clear. but it. I think it kind of indicates that, but the idea of being, maybe if we stay far from failure under the conditions Josh mentioned with heavy loads, particularly with maximum concentric content. It may be that we are achieving maximoity in or recruitment, and these fast twitched fibers are the ones that are receiving mechanical attention primarily. And if that's the case, kind of the biggest bank for our buck is kind of being checked. And maybe we're not getting the same overall stimulus, because as we kind of take a set to complete fatigue fast, which fibers will stop producing force because they're the most fatiguable and we kind of run the backwards handmman size principle fatigue solwiage fibres as well, Um, So that makes sense in my head in the sense that you know, as long as we're training with heavy loads using maximal intent,

[aaron_straker]: 50:26

Ssssssssssssss,

[zac]: 50:28

which is essentially maximum effort on every single repetition, we may just target the stimulus slightly differently, and I think this is evidence by one study that I. I haven't really seen anybody talk about, but it just always never makes sense. in my head. It was a study by lynn. I think is the first author. Um, one group trained with eighty per cent to failure. One group trained thirty percent of failure, and then they did a thirty percent of one or M group. That workload matched to the eighty percent of one room. So essentially what that does is that makes the group train with thirty percent of one or M. Do like twelve raps per set, which is super far from failure. And what they saw was significant type to fiber hypertroph, but not significant, type one fibbrgephe, and based purely on the Henman size principle, meaning that you need to take a set to failure in order to creruit the highest threshd mode units, that in intererbate, the fastest twitch fibres. That doesn't make any sense, So that is my

[bryan_boorstein]: 51:19

right,

[zac]: 51:21

super speculative personal opinion, Huge grain assaalt, once again, look at it right

[bryan_boorstein]: 51:26

Yeah,

[zac]: 51:26

there there it is. Make sure you see it. That's how it would make sense.

[bryan_boorstein]: 51:31

are they using maximal concentric intent on those twelve wraps Are the

[zac]: 51:36

can't can't remember, can remember, can' remember. On that setb we decided a new study

[bryan_boorstein]: 51:36

thirty re max? Yeah,

[zac]: 51:40

by Anderson and colleagues that did do that which was within subjects design using velocity loss That did see similar hypertrophy between like five to ten r, R to a group training pretty close to failure. Um. So that now is with maximum concentric intent on single Eglec press and the extension So, but yeah, I mean, just from like a super speculative standpoint, That's how I could see. it could make sense, Um again, with the conditions being met that you're training with heavy loads and maximum concentric content. Um. But yeah, that's that's kind of my thought.

[josh]: 52:13

motor unit physiology is very complicated. but though just one thing I think I'd want the listener to chew on and again we not um or not mot Uni physiology experts, by any means, but like, just think about it conceptually. If if you have high higher threshold, fibres are more fatiguable and let's say we are confident they're in the game, is there a reason that those would really rev up near the end of

[bryan_boorstein]: 52:45

No, there,

[josh]: 52:45

As so? That's kind of whata is saying is oncere in the game. While the morph nowa

[zac]: 52:47

T.

[bryan_boorstein]: 52:48

right

[zac]: 52:49

two tooth, two caveats, two cabats. One recruitment isn't the only thing that matters

[josh]: 52:49

going to add the copy? Here we go.

[zac]: 52:54

so you can recruit a motor unit. But that same motor unit can be fired at a different rate, so that's another variable to kind of enter the equation for motor units and the fibers it inervates to produce maximum force. It can fire the action potential faster. Just muddy the waters a little bit, but that's just something else to consider. Um, and then, too, I want to just make clear like how we get here like Josh and I, you know, very much believe in being outcome oriented and then working backwards rather than taking these mechanisms in speculating, you know practical applications. from there we see. in the longitudal research, These certain things seem to be the case from the actual muscle growth that we observe. Then we work backwards and speculate why that may be the case, but we're always willing to change this part. Once the outcomes are updated, we get more information. You know, we get a few more. These studies that really measure regional and synergisttic hypergphy. I'm willing to change my mind. We're dis kind of speculating how we get to the current longit. in the research that we do have, which seems to suggest that so long as the load is have enough, you're using maximum intent on every repetition. you seem to get relatively similar muscle growth. Um, and that would be in my opinion wise. it's not necessarily that' the same. It's just your check in that big its bank. For your buck, eighty twenty threshold. The fastest Swi fibers are getting a stimulus in which seems to result in similar growth.

[bryan_boorstein]: 54:14

St. her anything

[aaron_straker]: 54:16

I think they try and take everything you guys just said and then like movev it into more of like a practical thing, especially for the listener and myself, To be completely honest when my head around it. So with training at, you know, further away

[zac]: 54:27

What'ss

[aaron_straker]: 54:27

from failure or lower, r, Ir's, or r, P. Es. The the kind of thing that comes to my mind is you don't have that like subjective perception of like, I'm working really hard. Right if we're talking

[josh]: 54:38

Yp,

[aaron_straker]: 54:38

about a, you know a tenrat max and I'm only doing four reps right. Those four reps are you know I'm not? They're not super easy, but there's no metabolite build up. I'm not breathing heavy. Anything like that. All those things are more towards your lower. You know R is hierar Ps, but I think one thing that you guys you know brought up multiple times in when you were just speaking was for each of those first four reps or those four. those four reps of that set maximum, Uh, concentric intent. So training like pushing that first wrap as if it was that

[bryan_boorstein]: 55:04

concentric.

[aaron_straker]: 55:09

tenth, and trying as hard as you

[josh]: 55:10

exactly.

[aaron_straker]: 55:11

possibly can, trying to move that weight pretty much as fast as you possibly can. Maximum force production. And that was kind

[josh]: 55:17

Mhm.

[aaron_straker]: 55:17

of. I just want to you know, clarify and ask you guys. That is what you mean by that Like trying with those four repsic

[bryan_boorstein]: 55:22

Yes,

[aaron_straker]: 55:23

as hard as possible.

[josh]: 55:25

Yeah, so something something we like to queue is like every rep is r P ten, not in the in the r, r r sense, but just in the general effort. since every rept b r p ten. Now this is going to be best for exercises where it's hardest at the bottom. right, lay sentsion. You don't want to explode through And then like just you know, fly through at the top rate. Um, So there are of course some some practical cobbyats, but that's a. That's a great point, Um. and I think that was a really good over viewew, um. but from a a practical perspective a lot of people do enjoy training with lower r r Rs. right, Um, so I think that's something to to keep in mind as well. And and for point for situations like that, I just like to think of it as like a given a take. Um. If you're doing your tris of extensions to an r p five, it's kind of boring, right, like nobody really wants to do that. I've basically never recommend people do that, but if you are um, doing something that's just a little bit more fatiguing, Um, something that is Um, you know, might have some downstream effects in terms of your ability to complete volume within that session or later in the week, or if you're a strength athlete. Next time you get around to to train that lift and you want to hit a heavy single and you want to have as low as fatigue as possible to to hit a good number for that for that top set. then we can start to explore these strategies so it's really all given a take. Right if training tries to extension to an Rp nine isn't going to mess you up. Do it' probably more more efficient anyways, You also have the benefit of better accuracy in terms of rating your your R P's or your rars, So from a practical perspective we're definitely not saying, take your tent max on Transp extension and do four reps more. So big compounds stuff that might beiguing

[zac]: 57:11

two things I was going to say Real quick is number one. I think super important part of this conversation as we're talking a legit ten rat max. So

[bryan_boorstein]: 57:19

he.

[zac]: 57:20

a lot of people here were saying like allr, I'm going to go do sets of ten at a five, r, p, E. and in reality they end up using Th a thirty r, M. That is definitely not what we' were saying. Um, The r. r accuracy component of this is very, very, very important. and that's why in a strength context is usually less of an issue Right. Because we have these top sets that we can anchor our performance. We can do a percentage of that top set to make sure that we're in the adequate loading range And it's really not that big of an issue. We doing a triples seventy five eighty percent. We're already in that range, and R. icraacy is less of a problem for high perch for your oriented training. It can be a little bit more of an issue rating a set of six at a five, r Ps. a pretty difficult task and you can end up running into a fifteenno twenty r. M there if you're not careful, which is why it's a little bit more nuanced for our pertury training. As far as I'm concerned, and the other common I want to kind of paired this with in comment is that I made a post about this recently. Like the one thing we got to keep mind also is that training of failure is almost never worse in the research. So, if, in my opinion, for pachphies specifically, if you are going to you know, be a little bit off in either direction, absolutely would rather it be in the high effort direction for high perty, specifically, Um, there seems to be like this box that you kind, and got a check for these higher r r r strategies to be Um. Sufficient, and if you're not totally confident that's the case, I would always probably go a little bit closer to failure for muscle growth. In order to you know, kind of check your boxes and make sure you giveve yourself a little bit of insurance in that in that way, Um, so that that's the other thing I always want to keep in mind is that you know, got to make sure R Rs are accurate, and to do that you might have to adequately go close to failure every now and again to make sure you are understanding what a true set of like, six straps at of five, R P really is like. That's a little bit more a challenging set than I think a lot of people realize. but I, Jeff Nipper did a really cool kind of concept on his iniggram about this recently. seeing people take uh a set of light press to failure And there was still a bunch of people on there that are still like, in my opinion, like three or four reps and reserve like. And that is a perfect example. It's like that set that they just did is what we're advocating for. What they're calling failure is five reps and reserves. So like some people's gauge of like, Oh man, sets of five, R, P, or super easy. Me and Joshu. usually like man like, I understand what you're saying conceptually, but like dude, two r r r. Like, think about you know Peking, after a set of leg press, that's two reps removed from that like Oh,

[bryan_boorstein]: 59:46

Mhm,

[zac]: 59:46

it's only a few more like. it's still a pretty challenging set If all these other boxes are checked. Um, so that's a I, just something to keep in mind

[bryan_boorstein]: 59:55

Yeah, For sure, No, I think that that's a really a really good point to for the listener to think about. I feel like, So you look at myself and I'm mostly a physique athlete and I I do strength. I'm basically about to embark on my first strength phase in a number of years, and I talked about this last week. So I, I did do a bunch of strings. I've talked with you and Dm about this. I did like the repeto, uh, Texas method for for six or

[josh]: 1:00:18

one.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:00:19

seven months, and it actually was really good. I mean, I was. I was absolutely destroyed by the end of it from

[aaron_straker]: 1:00:23

Eight

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:00:24

hitting three and five failure constantly. but um, but it worked and I'm

[zac]: 1:00:25

Ssssssssssssssssssssss.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:00:29

actually really excited to embark on a strength phase here. so one question I have is I want to to utilize this approach of this kind of five to sevenish r Ir range. So if I know more or less what my like, ten r m low barb swat or or deadlift is right, then I could basically take that ten r m weight, and that would be what I would start with for sets of three, and in my mind I'm thinking like, because these are big demanding movements that I probably want to start with like four triples, maybe five triples at that way, and then maybe in another week I'll add to six sets, and then maybe I get up to seven sets by week three or week four or. Something like that. Um, is that like a prudent approach? Is that how? maybe I I should do it? Um, how do you progress those triples week to week? Like Obviously you're using velocity, but not everyone has access to velocity. So do I finish that last set of three and I'm like Yep, still feels about as easy as the first set of three. Or like, what kind of things should I be using to determine when I should increase weight on the sequence?

[josh]: 1:01:40

I'll kick it off here. So in practice, what we will typically do is use a topset to anchor the load for the back off work. so work up to a topse of anywhere from like one to four reps, anywhere in that five to nine r P range. You can just use a generic Rp percentage chart type thing and say Okay, what's a ballpark of my estimated one or M for the day, and then you can have a percentage of your one max and and calculate that, so a percentage of your estimate one max. So if you hit, you know a given load for a single r. P for most people, about ninety two percent calculate ninety two percent of that estimated one. M. excuse me, calculate. uh, you know, find your estimate one around based on that and

[aaron_straker]: 1:02:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[josh]: 1:02:30

then say okay, I'm going to do seventy five percent for my triples today. Um, because you know seventy five percent is about a ten or Mm. For most people, you're basically guaranteed to to to be good to go there. so from a practical perspective, I would say as your topset performances increase, then you can also kind of inch up the the load used on your back offses, and then what I'll do is I'll add an r p E cap for those back offs sets, so I's say you do a a single at an r. P, six to eight, calculate your estimate to one M. Oh, okay, and use whatever, seventy five to eighty percent for these back off triples with an r P. cap of seven. What that means is Hey, if any of these sets exceed in r p. seven, I'm going to drop the load by five percent or so. For those, The the rest of the sets. I mean that kind of has built in progression if you will. Um, what you kind of outlined included like an Adding sets type structure, and that that's a whole nether conversation, right, Um, go for.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:03:26

Well, it's mostly because I haven't done a lowbar back swer a dead lift in so many years that I wanted to start at three. Four said something

[josh]: 1:03:29

Yeah, Yeah, then definitely assets.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:03:33

prudent

[josh]: 1:03:34

Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:03:34

where I'm not going to be sore for a week. So I figured ultimately, my goal is to get up to seven sets or eight sets or something like that,

[josh]: 1:03:43

yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:03:44

but I feel like it's just pru to start slower.

[josh]: 1:03:47

a. absolutely. I feel like you could even just add in like a topset with one back

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:03:51

Okay,

[josh]: 1:03:51

off set and just go from there like just that little bit of practice is going to go a long way. But yeah, I think I think I kind of covered everything there. And and I agree if you're rebuilding then, Um, definitely, uh, you know, certain, nice and slow.

[zac]: 1:04:05

Yeah, I dont. I don't know too much that I think. Um, like Josh said, especially when you' introducing a new movement. I would be extremely conservative with both the load selection and the volume you're dedicating towards that. I would imagine one of one of the things you also keep in the. back of your mind is I want to have adequate volume until at least maintain a high

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:04:21

yeah,

[zac]: 1:04:22

perety progress, which is what. I. I kind of inferred that from

[josh]: 1:04:25

Oh eight.

[zac]: 1:04:25

what you were saying, so in that case, like Josh said, I would start with Uh, the way I

[aaron_straker]: 1:04:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[zac]: 1:04:29

always kind of think about it is like Okay. What would I start with? I'm just like doing like normal sets, and then kind of flip the what we call low fatigue protocol with that. So like you know, M, three sets of five at a moderate load is pretty reasonable on day one. So you know, like you said, three or four, four or five sets of three at a at a similar load is probably pretty reasonable. Um, the one thing I will say purely anecdotal when you are able to produce more force, kind of under the curve for a training session. I have found that to be a little bit more fatiguing for people that aren't used to that than than uh normal. So the way I kind of think about it, it's like kind of another workload metric. If we were to track the peak force um from your total, like, let's just say you did fifteen repetitions from three sets to five versus five sits of three, it'd probably be higher

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:05:15

Mhm,

[zac]: 1:05:17

for the five sets to three, Um In. While I don't think that's you know, necessarily a bad thing. Obviously, that's kind of what we're going for. I have found like you know, doing high velocity squats, Um, people's adctors get super stiff the day after just from stuff like that. Um, in addition to it being a new movement, Um, such as something to keep in mind is like I do think on paper it's going to be like Oh, dude, this is. This is so easy and then you do it and it's like, Oh man, I'm I'm a little more beat up

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:05:39

you.

[zac]: 1:05:42

than I thought, so always probably start more conservative than you think. But then I

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:05:44

Yeah,

[zac]: 1:05:45

think the adding sets approach is probably pretty reasonable, and I think what I would do with that is just kinda go with my topset performance if my tops sets going up pretty well, And that's something you can r, p, uh, rate with your r p pretty accurately. As long as that's Tn. enough and you're feeling great, Probably you can keep the sets the same, or maybe add one here and there and then once performance kind of stalls out. Then you can assess your recovery and and go from there, but that's kind of how I would approach and just make sure you kinda respect the new exercise. New protocols. That kind of thing. I just know I've done that to myself so many times like. Oh, okay, I usually do seven eight triples with this and like hop in with like six on week one and that my ad actors are just fried. so just uh, yeah, just just keep that in mind.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:25

totally I love that and I love the idea of using the tops sett as like,

[zac]: 1:06:27

Ssssssssssssssssssss,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:28

Kind of, they gauge for the day and basing progression off of that. Um, so I'm definitely go to. I made a note of that in the document as you were talking. so I'm going to make sure I incorporate that in Uh strike Ive, one more question on the bodyuildings strangk stuff. Do you have anything to add real quick before I roll?

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:42

No, not from this one. I be fully transparent. like when I do transition to

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:43

Okay,

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:46

my strength block. I will one hundred per be outsourcing that programming to someone else.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:51

I debated it. I was devating hitting these guys up, and I just love the process of figuring it out for myself

[josh]: 1:06:55

Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:56

so much.

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:56

I love it with

[josh]: 1:06:57

she musts been

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:57

the hytrophy, but with these strength I just I, In being completely honest, I don't think I can regulate myself well enough. I think the Eago will catch up a little bit and be. Oh, I'm not as fatigued as I as my body telling me I am and I'm just going to outsource it so I can remove my. I want to remove myself from the equation Is basically what I' saying.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:07:19

That's interesting. We'll have to compare and contrast the two approaches and see it goes. Um cool. Do you guys have fifteen itch Twenty more minutes? Yeah, okay, I'll get you out of here in twenty minutes at most. Uh, okay, So when a bodyuilder is setting up or doing embarking on a strength phase, I know I can kind of uh, ascertain some of this from. I, listen to the conversations act that you had with Ion. I iron culture, Um about power building and stuff like that. so um, kind of the idea that you laid out there was that high perchry work is highy, peretry work like Don't try to do sets of five on pushedd downs, and that obviously makes complete sense. But when you're programming a physique athlete, bodybuilder type person, and they're doing a strength phase, do you do this as like primarily like a strength phase, and then you get back into hypertphy, Or are you still utilizing these like hyperchphy, Maybe even cable based like isolation movements, along with the core competency strength work. Because like one of the things , that told me on D, M, was that you guys have this kind of subtle inclin show that. Maybe there's a bit of a resensitization

[aaron_straker]: 1:08:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[josh]: 1:08:26

ssssssssssssss.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:08:27

effect when you do just strength to work, and then you know you ressize and you go back into hypertrophy. I know that speculation. but like is that a way that you generally would program that a streing cycle for a physie athlete? Or do you still incorporate those hyperty elements within the structure of that St. cycle?

[zac]: 1:08:43

Yeah. so if if I uh, was going to utilize these principles, Um, for somebody who's purely physique focused, is kind of how I would think about it like, like you said, I think anecdotally. I've found that like Um, intensity techniques, or like advanced training techniques like Mio, reps, dropses, dress paws, stuff like that. Um. I. I have no scientific evidence back this up. It just feels like it works for about like three four weeks, Um. and what I think these strength principles are for hytry training specifically is kind of the inverse of that Um. So if we do this high metabolite accumulation stuff for three four weeks, our buffering capacity improves. So the system is like this is no longer as stressful In a relative sense. I think the kind of strength oriented stuff is kind of the opposite direction it might maximize, like some neural qualities and stuff for strength, but it probably decreases your ability to buffer metabolites. Stuff like that, that may again very speculative, may have some sort of um, potentiory effect for for high perty, So that is how I would kind of use it Um. In terms of Uh, training for a physique only athlete, seventy percent of their training is going to be bread and butter principal based. you know training for Perjy like we. You know, we all know Um. but I think these are kind of two strategies you can kind of intermix to to resensitize and desensitize yourself to this metabol stress aspect. So I would probably just like a rough example. You know, you have your high peretry block. Maybe two of those throw in a strength block. whereas probably three weeks of these strategies where you know on hack squat. Maybe this is where we're using that approach where we kind of flip the sets in the wraps or something like that. So most the set's going to be farther from Faliar. with a similar load. You

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:10:27

Mhm,

[zac]: 1:10:27

still include all of the cable work. Like you mention, your Bulgarian split squad stuff like that. I don't think you'd take that out. Um, I just think probably that's where we would use a higher r. r. paradigm of like, Maybe instead of T treating those to failure, or one or two r r. maybe we're going three to four on those. Um. And and just kind of conceptually, everything builds on this aspect of minimizing the metabolic stress, maximizing force output for the exercise you're doing and the result of that, and I can very much attest to this when you do a power lifting testing session and then you come back to weak. One of your high peretry block. metabolk stress is not very comfortable. And then you can kind of use that if there is a benefit to that, And you know I'd say primarily, we would argue. That's probably psychological primarily at the moment, but dis. anecdotally. It seems like it could potentially be a physiological rationale as well. Then you come back to more you know, metabolite oriented training that may kind of potentiate that a little bit more. Do a couple of weeks of that then go back your bread and butter, and kind of repeat. Um. That's that's how I see it for a physique only athlete. Obviously, these strategies were birth in and strength kind of approaches. and I think that's where we primarily see it. but I do think there could be a potential application Um, particularly on compound exercises that Um. you know are are are something that's pretty fatiguing. Um. that's kind of where I see it, Josh. I don't know if you' any da

[josh]: 1:11:48

Now I agree,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:11:49

That's awesome. No, I love that, and especially the example you put out of the hack squat where it's maybe slightly lower raraps, and slightly further from failure, and that's kind of exactly the way that I kind of tentatively programmed my strength phases. I have, like you know, low bar back squat deadlift one day, and then on two days later I have like a pendulum squad, but my plan was to do like five set to five with a ten r m or something along those lines, so keep velocity

[josh]: 1:12:13

beautiful.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:12:13

et cetera et cetera cool. so ar' anything to add before I jump to the next section.

[aaron_straker]: 1:12:20

No. I just want to make surecause. I know what Want to bepect of the time? That' save a little bit to talk about there, The Dscip program,

[zac]: 1:12:26

ssssssssssssss

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:12:28

Cool. Yeah, I'll I'll be super. I'll be super quick, honest, and I'll actually skip the final question that I have, and I just want to talk briefly about psychological arousal, because that's the term you guys use and it like when I hear you guys talk about it. I'm like it's It's literally defined, like the last ten years of my training and all the positives and negatives that I've gone through and the flows of my training and it. It just it puts things in and makes so much sense out of it right. So the way that I think about the way when you guys talk about this because you have all the inputs you have, like the volume and the proximity of failure and the the lengtheneder or shortened position. And like all these things, but ultimately like, I think, the biggest factor as it pertains to me and probably many others is the idea of how many times you need to unrack the bar. You call them total unracks or whatever I think was the term you guys used and that to me like, actually makes a difference. Um, so like we talk about doing like seven sets of three. and so yeah, you don't need to get like hyped up for for seven cents of three. Like you can, kind of just kind of stay sympathetic and just kind of you know, walk up to the bar and do your thing. Whatever, whatever, or there's like one or two sets. but every set is like to the house, and you have to like see God to finish a set. So um, so I just love the way when you guys initially talked about that and I've a follow up on this. But if you guys can just talk to the listeners a little bit about, kind of some of the way that you guys think about this and how it might apply to training

[josh]: 1:13:53

Yeah, I think right off, I honestly think you did a pretty good job overviewing it. Like for certain exercises there's going to be different psychological considerations and other exercises right. seven sets of three on squad is a lot different than seven sets of three on deadlift,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:14:07

Mhm.

[josh]: 1:14:08

Right, because thatd love. you. Just walk up to the bar to go, but on the other end of the spectrum you have like this huge build up. if if you're just doing a set or two to failure of this huge build up and you kind of just have like peaks and valleys in Aousal, Whereas, if you're doing seven sets of three, I have to have like kind of a calm focus to you, can't get too high. You definitely can't get

[aaron_straker]: 1:14:26

Ssssssssssssss,

[josh]: 1:14:30

two looks as soon as you get too low. It's going to feel a lot heavier than a tenant. Max. whatever you' using. See that's kind of the general overview. Is there' going to be different considerations? Theoretically in a Stra facease, we might want to do twelve sets of one, fifteen sets of one just from again from a theoretical basis, But then you start to adding these considerations. Okay, they have to unrack the bar. Walk it out fifteen times. so yeah, that's kind of where my head goes.

[zac]: 1:14:59

Yeah, I think that's the's from a conceptual basis. The only thing we've kind of shifted our mind uh on over time, kind of similarly related to that is, instead of matching, you know, in a very technical sense like the number of reps with the given load. Probably more so, going for like matching the stress, which is not something we can quantify. It's just like this kind of conceptual. You know, if I do, you know four sets of five with a given we. I not's a bad example. If I do uh, three sets of five with the given weight and I do um, five sixs to three with the with the same weight on paper, that's you know, the same amount of retition should be the same training effect. But then when you're add in those two additional unracks that has like this, non quantifiable amount of increase and stress. whether that'slated to arousal, Whether that's related to some of the the for stuff we talked about. The reality is it's something you do have to account for. Um. And so I think that's where we've kind of shifted our mindset of. instead of just simply flipping the sets and the reps. it is going to kind of be this individual dependent thing that isn't purely analytically math based. You know, you might go from, you know, uh, six, uh, uh, three sets to six to four sets of three, and that just might be what happens. And and that's not going to perrfectly match up in terms of not total number repetitions, But that may be what's right for an individual, so I think that's just something that kind of goes along with that. And it's related to psychologicalrousal on racks and stuff,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:16:24

What have you guys anecdotally From the pletho of clients that you've

[zac]: 1:16:25

Ssssssss.

[aaron_straker]: 1:16:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:16:29

worked with over time. As far as people that psychologically prefer you know fewer sets with more arousal versus more sets with less rousals.

[josh]: 1:16:41

I think it depends how bought in they are, to kind of the conceptual idea of how we might design a strength phase, So people that are bought in, and like they might, they might reach out to us because they're like. Hey, this makes a lot of sense. I think this might help me with ex, lift. Like I want to work together. Let's see how this works. In that case, they're going to be all for it, right, Um, other cases, like W. What do you mean you want me to take my? Um, my feet up bench, only two. an r. P. five to six. Like. like. What are you talking about like Wh w. like. Are we even training? So it's going to be very like a matter of like what they've been exposed to in terms of like our, our stuff, or or other people's stuff? Um, if they come from like a super high intensity training background, Um, that's going to be a very very hard transition. Also, it's going to be how receptive they are to what the coach says, right like Hey, this is what I think is best on paper. Um, if they're not going to be receptive to what you think is best on paper, you're goingnna have to walk backwards from there. I, so again, I feel like our our answers across the board today have been. Hey, it's going to be individual, but I, I. I, I really think that's the case here. Um, you know I've I've definitely had some people where I make compromises in terms of the design to the strength phase. Of course, I try to be as strategic as possible. Um, just because of of a buy and an enjoyment factor, which yes, might seem like. Oh, you're making a sacrifice, but it's also like, still more optimal in the sense that if they're enjoying training, that's going to lead to better outcomes in enough itself, right, so Um, that's that's kind of how I think about it.

[zac]: 1:18:17

Not much that tot you.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:18:19

Does that ratio change at all? Do you think when someone's in a deficit like, might you me one

[josh]: 1:18:24

Ooh.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:18:25

way more than the other?

[aaron_straker]: 1:18:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[josh]: 1:18:27

that's a. that's a great question. Exact. What do you think? Well, I? I,

[zac]: 1:18:32

I mean, just off the just off the cuff. It's like has always come back to like the training you you did to get the muscles. Probably similar to the training you want to do to keep the muscle, but Um, that's kind of a

[josh]: 1:18:43

Mhm.

[zac]: 1:18:43

cop out answer. though I, I feel you know I, I can understand it

[josh]: 1:18:46

Yeah,

[zac]: 1:18:47

like some lower fatiguing protocols to make sure you can continue to Po for anecdotally. I've I've heard people. you know. I haven't been in the severe defafit myself, Um lifetime, skinny kids, so I, I try not to do that. Um, too much, Um, anecdotally. I've heard people that keeping performance is generally related to you know how much muscle they keep. Um. and so some of that seems obvious, but like, like top end strength, I guess like when the exercises that you care about like your six r m on Hack squat. let's say Um. And so maybe doing some of these strategies that allow you to hold ono a little bit more strength, potentially could be a little bit more useful in scenario where it's a little bit difficult to build it. Um, but that again, that's just totally anecdotal and I, I can't have much personal experience there.

[josh]: 1:19:32

yeah, I don't have much experience with the strength face specifically because I, most of the time I try to make it so that the athlete is at maintenance or their surplus or deficit is minor, leading into a test. Um, just for reasons of like, Hey, I don't want your belt the way your belt fits to be kind of shifting over this six weeks St. block. I also don't want. Um. I don't want you to necessarily losing weight from a predictability perspective, Um, in terms of of strength, so like the the way that we like to think about is like the high pertry phases are going to be your like body composition manipulation phases, and then the strengthas like Okay, let's maintain you kind of be in a more or less narrow window of of your, your your calorie maintenance. Um, and kind of you know, try to hold steady up until Stng test, Though, that's kind of the reason why

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:20:23

Yeah, Interesting. Yeah, no, I like any good straight her. I'm di. I don't

[zac]: 1:20:26

Ssssssssssssss.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:20:26

have any more questions for him.

[aaron_straker]: 1:20:28

right, I'm very excited to talk about this. So a little bit of background history like I, I worked as a software engineer for like multiple years, so as much as I, you know, shifted away from that from a career standpoint, You really can't get rid of these nerd tendencies right. You don't go into that without that kind of being in place. So want to talk about the kind of hybrid product You guys have the D. Dsip, which is a really sweet acronym. By the way, I believeated data driven strength, individual programming,

[josh]: 1:20:55

exactly individualized program. Yup,

[aaron_straker]: 1:20:56

individualized programing, so just tell us a little bit more about it, and then I want to unravel just some of the cool things about the cycle, some of the auto regulation, and just tell, Take me through your thoughts around how you guys built it and stuff, and feel free to share as much, or obviously don't disclose any Ip or anything like that, Please,

[josh]: 1:21:13

awesome man. Well, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. Um. Obviously, I don't want to make this a sales pitch. so uh, bring it back toward towards practical stuff as needed. Um. But the way that I would kind of describe the The service is that it's somewhere between automated programming in group coaching, so we're like Okay. How can we like make it as close to coaching as possible, but also make it affordable so we're like. Okay. What? what do we think actually needs to be individualized on? Uh, you know, on a lifted de lifted basis. Um, so we kind of said Okay, let's pick up the the big. You know three or four training variables that we think are super important to dial in and that seem to act like getting those in the right range for the individual, seem to really move the needle in terms of of getting that individual to progress. So basically what we did is is we have these training variables that we think are more or less the big hitters in terms of individualization, Um. and we have a system for helping each lifter dial that in over time, so we'll we' get a starting point based on like some initial questionnaires, Um, and then after each training cycle there are further questionnaires Um. So we have like date

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:22:25

S.

[josh]: 1:22:26

analysis tools to you know, Give you some guidance as to Hey, based on your strength level based on your rate of gain. This went well for your squat, or this didn't go well for your squad, right, Um, because we want to have a system so that when things don't go well, we have a way to adjust accordingly. Um, same idea with fatigue. Hey, based on kind of your your, your questionnaire responses throughout the Uh, or based on like your reports throughout the training cycle. You are really fatigued for your squad. Um, this is good information going into your next training cycle, so it's kind of this cyclical process of dialing in these big hitter training variables and then the the group aspect is like Hey, I want to make a more k, nitty grady change that isn't built to to kind of the the algorithm or the system itself, or this is kind of an edge case scenario. That's where kind of the manual side of it comes in, right, Um, Myself and zach are very active in our private Facebook group helping out like case specific stuff. we have. Uh. kind of our our back end dude. His name is Drake Easter Hot. He did some athlete monitoring stuff with Uh, during his master's degree, so he's super well versed in. Um. Like you know, kind of the the back and stuff that we use for this, Um, so you know, it's kind of that combination of. Yes, it's kind of automated, but it also has that personal touch and that allows us to deliver it to more people and at a a more affordable price.

[aaron_straker]: 1:23:47

awesome, follow up questionnaires. So with this individualized programming specifically, is this one purely um powered power lifting?

[josh]: 1:23:56

So we, when when you sign up there are there's an option to select power lifting strength and size, or muscle growth, So power lifting would like you're going to get more jacked in in the prime movers for the big three. Uh, because we think that's important, but then the strength and size is like. Hey, Oh, you also care about physique. Okay, here's like the cherry on top type stuff. We're going to make sure you cap those delts a little bit. Um, and then muscle growth would be. Hey, I don't care about strength at all.

[zac]: 1:24:21

Full disclosure are cheated on my answer about their, the kind of low fatigue strategies for physique athletes. That's

[josh]: 1:24:27

Yes, you did

[zac]: 1:24:28

literally just the the exact kind of uh, big, big change we made to the hyperte programs. We're really excited about Um. kind of offering a little bit more of a comprehensive way to design those training cycles, rather than just kind of your. your standard. Um. you know programming. I guess a little bit more interesting. We mostly think that's just

[josh]: 1:24:44

Mhm.

[zac]: 1:24:44

a psychological thing to offer some benefits and have some fun. But like I said, speculative case for physiological resensitization,

[josh]: 1:24:50

neutral, positive news

[aaron_straker]: 1:24:53

and then um question. This is purely like a personal one. Like let's say so, for instance, I plan on moving into the stre cycle here in the coming months, but I'm not really overly interested in a bench press. I'm more interested in an overhead press. Is that like a sort of customization that could go into the system, Or would that be more of like the the group coaching aspect posted in the in the Facebook group type of deal?

[josh]: 1:25:14

it would. it would be the latter, so man, I'm surprised the number of people that like to to swap in just overhead press right now. it would just be based on like, uh, squapnch. That lift W. we actually do have a handful of people that are just like you. Um, what they would do is they would just change the exercises and you' kind of make a wonder one swap. Okay you're doing. Uh, you know, regular bench press changed that to regular O. H. P. We have you doing feed up, Uh Dubell bench. Okay, change that to uh. see the doble overhead press. Have you doing pawe a three count paws bench press? whatever change that to pin overhead press So you can do that and then just kind of use the bench press? Uh, analyst, uh, analysis, and say okay, this is actually for overhead press for me, So that is kind of a limitation. Um. but there is kind of that. Work around that again is a shortcoming of the algorithm. but we kind of you know, help people on a case specific basis for that stuff.

[zac]: 1:26:03

Yeah, yeah, and that's one thing we worked really hard to do. Um, kind of we. So the full name of the thing is individualized programming plus self coaching tool. Ki, Um, so we we know like there's a ton of people like Josh and I are trying to design this product for ourselves, right, So we're tinkers, just like you guys like we like messing with the details. So you also wanted to provide every single tool necessary for you to make the adjustments, and and play around some stuff. So you know, we monthly webonars

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:26:25

isssssssssssssssssss.

[zac]: 1:26:29

and stuff to have new ideas, Um, in education as as more research comes out and stuff, But that that was the whole purpose of like people like you that have that change they want to make. We want to make sure you're not locked into just doing stuff that you know maybe isn't going to fully meet your goal, So we try to accommodate as much of those changes as as we could to make sure that everybody's accounted for.

[aaron_straker]: 1:26:49

cool. Yeah, it. Definitely sounds like something. very very uh, interesting. It. just, it's like a blend of my interest right on one and I hate to draw the parallel, but it it does remind me of, like the old days of the juggernaut, um, A. i, um. I had ran that a number of years back, and it buried me in volume and I'm a person who likes volume and that was rough for

[josh]: 1:27:08

Mhm.

[aaron_straker]: 1:27:09

me, but it's just a very very cool thing of you know, putting together strength, putting the science aspect of it in some of the the Algorthe type stuff because for a a large majority of people right, there's obviously going to be the fringes and stuff like sound principles. There sound principles for a reason, because they apply to a large, you know, distribution of people, and I think that' something really really cool. So the last kind of question I have there for for each of you guys is what would you say? Your favorite

[josh]: 1:27:33

well said well said.

[aaron_straker]: 1:27:36

part of that Um, kind of service, Uh, slash product that is that you guys have built together.

[josh]: 1:27:42

That's a great question. z.

[zac]: 1:27:43

I'm I'm going to. Yeah, I'm going to go for the one thing I want to clarify. From the last question. every single one of the training options in D. D. S. I. P has been coach verified. so just just to

[josh]: 1:27:53

Mhm.

[zac]: 1:27:53

be clear, that's something we worked really hard on too. So you're not going to get some crazy thing that Um, shouldn't be Uh, done. Potentially, um, but um, as far as my favorite aspect of the product, I think it's probably a nice one to get a massive shout at the jerke, Josh mentioned earlier, He works really really hard on a lot of the back and stuff, and has created some novel Um. Athlete individualization tools and data analysis stuff that I think is really really cool and so like the the performance evaluation that we have, has you know, integrates some research that we have on base rates of gain for different strength levels, as well as some some formulas. In order to make it not just like a binary. did you increase strength from pre to post? It's a little bit more complicated than that, and I think it's a really good way to offer a comprehensive way of evaluating progress. That's a little bit. You know. It's not ordinary. I think it's he worked really hard on and I want to give them a toic credit for for digging that out. and I think it's something that offers a a ton of value to the to the person that's using it.

[josh]: 1:28:55

I th. this is probably a cop out answer too, but like I'd say, my favorite thing in terms like just my day to day, um, related to this product is always being surprised with how freak and smart our our

[zac]: 1:29:06

Yep,

[josh]: 1:29:07

lifters are. Um, like when we're putting in the skele? Like will people understand this? Like Will they know what we mean? Like are people going to be able to catch on and we're like Peop. People are just taking it and and really making the mostment Like we got to give these people more credit. Like our audience is just freak and smart, Um, and and smart, and also just like resourceful. So I thought that I think that's the the coolest thing on a lifted a lifter basis, Right like some people just get it, kind of stick with the default, or like our, or, or go two exercises that we kind of have built in there. but then we have you know resources. Hey, this is a case where you might want to change this exercise to this. Um, people asking super good questions using those those resources, but also some people accepting, like Hey, I'm not really interested investing that time was going to kind of go with with the the starting point, So seeing people understand that and like also invest the that. The effort to kind of think through that has been super super cool. Like we have people incorporating velocity, Um, like z, zachs, next webon are, Uh. That's coming out later this week. all about philosophy based training. How to incorporate within the system? Um, is everybody getting to use that? No, but I know there's going to be at least a handful of people that are going to incorporate it. and and and really benefit from it. And it. It requires a a good amount of thinking to be able to incorporate those conss. So yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 1:30:24

Yeah, I think that is kind of a testament to to you guys and the the type of uh audience you attract right when people come across yourself and' okay, da to D driven strength. You guys are obviously very well spoken. Everything is very very, you know, applied to research and stuff, people are not going to be. You're not going to get like your superbs, who just want to like sling weights and not think about it, type of stuff. I think. uh, that is something that uh, I think would make a lot of sense based on just how you guys carry yourself and the type of things you talk about. For sure. that's super cool.

[josh]: 1:30:52

reciate appreciate it.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:30:53

I'm constantly surprised by how intelligent the evidence space community is. For the most part.

[josh]: 1:30:58

Yeah,

[zac]: 1:30:58

Sure,

[josh]: 1:31:00

No doubtwese. thank you.

[aaron_straker]: 1:31:01

Yeah, I mean, that's all I had on that. it's definitely something I plan on looking, Um more into. I have to. really. I'm uh, I have to give myself a little bit. I have some like a gut protocol'm running that I need to reduce training intensities and stuff for for the stress reason, so probably a couple months until I'm around. but it is something very very cool that I definitely plan on looking into.

[zac]: 1:31:21

thank you so much for let us talk about it too,

[aaron_straker]: 1:31:24

Of course,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:31:25

Yeah, thanks for coming on, guys. It was really cool to pick your brains and be able to to connect in this manner

[aaron_straker]: 1:31:30

Yeah, for sure, so

[zac]: 1:31:31

dare say

[josh]: 1:31:31

Likewisells. Appreciate the opportunity be on. We have kind of had to put off like guest appearances on podcasts Without our research schedules. You guys were in the books for a while, so I'm glad this this all worked out is really good time,

[zac]: 1:31:42

I,

[aaron_straker]: 1:31:43

yeah, but

[zac]: 1:31:43

the guys had a great time. Thank you so much.

[aaron_straker]: 1:31:45

of

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:31:45

awesome.

[aaron_straker]: 1:31:45

course before we hop off, Uh guys, plug where everyone can find you guys and get more information about the D, d, s. I P, of force

[josh]: 1:31:52

data Dash driven strength, dot com that can take to article services, all that good stuff and thenram, Josh, outdated driven strength, Andac outdated of strength, Find all the stuff from there.

[aaron_straker]: 1:32:03

perfect and I'm going to link all that up in our show notes so they can find you. So again, Jack and Josh, thanks for coming on and everyone. we will talk to you next week.