Back and Lats Training | ETP#137

What's up guys? Happy Tuesday. Welcome back to Eat, Train, Prosper. So we are back after our two week hiatus while I was traveling in New Zealand and Australia. And we have a very, very cool episode, which is going to be the first part in an upcoming series, which we are labeling our design series. And today we are touching on the upper back or what I should really just say the back and lats. So what we're going to be doing with this design series is not necessarily for the next like X amount of weeks, but over the coming months, sprinkling in some of our thought process in Brian's like extensive history of designing like years and years and years of training programs into how we, how we would recommend that you could approach structuring some in today's episode back training with a few options. If you're training in kind of a commercial or bodybuilding gym, which is obviously outfitted with numerous machines, cables, et cetera. If you were in a more functional or crossfit training facility or potentially a home gym, but then also a very limited approach where if we only had dumbbells and bands. Now, before we get into the episode and Brian's updates, of course, what kind of initiated the thought around this episode is, like many of the listeners know that I live in here in Bali, and Bali is really like a hub for fitness and health. However, I would say in many, many cases, it's often tainted with what I'm just going to say is general fuckery. And I see just the most awful things. And now that I live here and I'm in the algorithm, there's so much of the post of like, do this for your next back workout. And it's like five exercises that train the same muscle in the same overload position, in the same vector of pull. And I'm like, you know nothing. You know nothing, you're just putting random shit together and putting it out there and training with your shirt off. And something that, you know, Brian, that you said, man, this is probably 80 episodes ago, and it's always stuck with me, and something that I'll think about often is like, this was verbatim what you said, there's a lot to be said for volume and effort. And I think it's a very, very accurate statement, which is why it still sticks with me. If you train hard enough for long enough, like, you will make progress, right? And obviously there's genetic, you know, individualizations and things like that, but I feel much more like drawn to speaking out about just some of the, just doing a better job with a lot of things. And I feel like with your brain, you have such a vast breadth of knowledge on this that we can really help people more. So that's what we're going to be doing. And then... When you see these ridiculous posts on Instagram and stuff, you will know, you'll be better educated as to why. So before we get into the X's and O's of today's episode, as always, Brian, can you kick us off with some updates, please? Yeah, man, I appreciate that intro. And, you know, yeah, volume and effort does get you quite a ways, but what it doesn't do is it doesn't help you train areas that maybe are lagging because all of your five exercises are all targeting the exact same region of your back. So you see this a lot. Like I've talked to Cass about this and other people in the industry and, you know, without any of this biasing and just going into the gym and training, what you end up seeing a lot of times is people with these really overdeveloped upper backs, because that tends to be the typical way in which people train back, as you know, with that more elbow out position or with those wider pronated grips, et cetera. And so, yeah, it does become a little bit more important if you wanna bring up some of those areas that maybe don't get hit by just the standard typical movements. And it is a bit of an atrocity when you look at those posts and you're like, try my back day. And it's literally just throw up of five different back exercises all doing the same thing. So, no, I totally feel you. And I'm excited about this series. I love it. As I kind of mentioned to you off air too, the way Paragon structures our programming is we have a full gym, commercial gym program, a home gym, CrossFit style gym program, and a dumbbell bands program. So I have a bit of pre-understanding of how this may go and looking forward to the discussion and kind of seeing where it goes. So jumping into updates real quick. It has been a while, but I'm going to try not to bore you guys to death here. One note that I think is probably pretty interesting to some of you guys is that my body weight is up 16 pounds in nine weeks. So it was September 29th that I hit my all time low, I guess in the last decade, it was 180 pounds flat on the scale. And then I ate up a little bit into the bike race, which was a week after that, so October 7th. And I think I did the bike race at 183 or 184, but from September 29th to right now, 16 pounds, I'm up to 196 this morning. And that leads me into the next update, which is that lifting training is going amazing. There is just something that makes you so resilient about having more body weight. And you just, you go into sessions without the body weight, like when you're in the deficit. and you don't realize that you're brittle, but like when you see how you respond when you're not brittle, it really reminds you of really how bad off you were when you didn't realize you were bad off. And so I don't know, like sessions have just been so good. I've been at this point now matching all time PRs on a number of movements that, you know, I find important that I value. So my hack press, my all time PR with the three second pause at the bottom was 550 for six. And this was last fall, basically last early winter, maybe before I started ramping up for the bike race. And I just got back to that number and hit that at the end of my last mess. So so that was really cool. One thing that I think is also kind of interesting is the incline dumbbell bench press has been a staple in my training for. I mean, I'm literally from, from the day I started training, I always thought inclined dumbbell bench press was the coolest movement for pressing for some reason. And I never barbell benched. I didn't even really do flat dumbbell bench. I just loved inclined dumbbell bench. And I did it all the way up through my training, all the way through the CrossFit days. I always prioritized it post CrossFit. It was always a staple. And then just in the last year, I took it out and started doing more cable stuff. And I tried to introduce it again, last cycle. And then I was like, oh, I don't really love it. And I went back to cable chest press. And so then this new mess that just started, I decided, all right, I'll give it one more shot, see what happens, tried it again. And I was like, oh, I just don't love this movement anymore. And I don't know exactly why I don't love it anymore. But I do think it's interesting that happened. And... I'm curious if you have any movements that you have always loved, you know, throughout your training career. And then, you know, you get to a point a year ago, two years ago, something like that. And you're just like, Oh, this movement just isn't it for me anymore. I think that's from my personal experience on it. It has to do with, once you... can really, really perfect like your movement execution and stuff. I'm talking like the really small minutia sort of thing. I find myself using like practically zero dumbbell free weight stuff anymore because I can just better orient myself in like a chest press machine to where I can like set the seat setting, you know, where I can get that like really good stretch, you know, and then the contraction so much. forceful feeling and Yeah, I will say that there's I do find myself using a lot less like dumbbells and free weights because some of that Especially with like medial delts Anterior delts like you can even have you have like the prone incline anterior delt rays and those sorts of things but I just find like it's Don't get me wrong, it works, but when I have choice, I'm gonna go set that up with constant tension where I can bias things, but again, it's you're in the weeds sort of thing there, but I do agree with you. yeah. Yeah, so I think like one point you made there was the stability piece of the machine. And so it's not that with your back against a bench on an inclined dumbbell press that you're lacking stability per se, but there is something about being able to have those handles on a machine or on a cable just going in the line that they're supposed to go and you don't have to worry about the balancing component as much. So I think that might be part of it. I also think part of it might just be the ego attached to it. And because I had so many years of being so strong at the incline dumbbell bench. I even got up to 120s for six to eight reps at one point. And so I was doing them yesterday. You know, and it was a reset deload week, so I wasn't pushing too hard. It was also the second movement in sequence or whatever, but I was using 85s. And I was just like, man, I don't even know, I don't even know what it would feel like to pick up 120 pound dumbbell right now. I don't even know if I could. rack that to my chest and press it up a single time. And so I think part of that is because my technique is so much better. Now, you know, I'm using a full range of motion, I'm getting a full stretch of pausing, I'm doing all these things, I'm not using body English, but it still is a one of those, I guess, ego hits to be like, man, that's a lot less weight that I used to use. But anyway, I don't want to belabor that point too much. Last two quick updates, paragon, we are starting a five day split for the first time since years ago, we We always, when we first started, we had a five day split back in like 2018, 19. But in the last few years, we've done four day splits and three day splits because we've really tried to fit into the structure of people's lives and making sure that, you know, hey, most people can only fit four days in and then we have some cardio that we add on and things like that. Starting in the new year, we are going to offer a five day program instead of our four day program. So we'll have a five day program and then we'll have a three day program. And The split for the five day program is going to be the lovely lower push pull, lower upper. So we really like this one, LPPU, the L-U, however you want to put that out there. So yeah, it's going to start with lower. It's going to have two lower days, three upper days, but two of the upper days are push and pull. And really excited about this. We're gonna do it as a rotating specialization. So the first seven weeks will be a lower body specialization. Then the next six weeks will be a push specialization. And then the final seven weeks will be a pull specialization. So about it, I think it's a 20 week cycle overall. Something new and different, five days of training. I'm really excited about it. So. hopefully everyone else's too. And we'll have more details coming out on that as the time nears. The launch for that, that official cycle starts January 8th. We're gonna have a transition week that takes us January 1st to January 8th. So you could jump in at any point in early January. And then the last update is that my rowing workouts are going really, really well. Dr. Mike T. Nelson, who I really wanna get on the podcast here soon to talk about all things fitness, cardio, hypertrophy. He's been coaching me on this stuff and I am at the nearing the end of my very first meso cycle of rowing. Essentially, we've progressed effort and duration volume over the last five weeks, six weeks. And I will have my 2K row test to kind of assess how the first six weeks went next week. And I'm anxious and nervous about that because there is nothing more painful than seven to seven and a half minutes of all out effort. But with everything that has been improving with my rowing, I think the biggest thing has been efficiency, technical efficiency. And so I always in the past, I think you can probably relate to this. Always used to row with the damper on a 10 with like this really slow stroke rate where it'd be like one big ass powerful stroke as hard as I could. And then it would be like. and then slowly go back and do another big ass stroke. And so it was basically like we were rowing for hypertrophy, I mean, anaerobically, I don't even know how to describe it, but basically using power over aerobic endurance. It was so, it was like my aerobic endurance was so poor that I was compensating for that by using more power. And so that's been one thing Mike and I have been working on a lot in the rowing is increasing my stroke rate and using a lower damper. And I never thought I'd be able to be a guy that rode on a five damper because it just, I felt like I couldn't create enough torque on the handle when I would pull. And, uh, over the course of the weeks, it's just somehow it's happened. And now I row on a damper five and it's been super productive and it feels more like cardio and less like maximal effort on every pole. Um, so that's been really cool. I've become a much better rower and, uh, yeah, I guess. nervous and excited to kind of see where that goes. Yeah, from what I remember, which is still very, very burned in my brain is if the damper was lower, I couldn't keep up the rate because my heart was too high. So if I could put the damper at 10 and just take like one big pull, and then like three seconds until I pulled again, I could keep my heart rate low enough while keeping my pace exactly the exactly the same. Yeah, but yeah, apparently that's not how the pros do it. No shit. All right, so some quick updates for me. First, especially as by the time this comes out, we'll be kind of halfway through. I have coaching roster availability right now for both male and female heading into the new year. I will, however, reach a cap as we get into the new year, so reach out early. What I have been doing for people who... I have a couple of people who... Don't want to get started until the new year for various reasons, which is perfectly fine. You can place a little bit of a deposit to hold a coaching roster spot and then pick when you would like to start. So if that sounds like something that you would like to do again, please reach out early, be in communication with me so I can help you plan for having a roster spot there. I'm moving on. I am in now what is likely going to be my final month of dieting here in December. I'm sitting in the 194 to 195 range. So we have this scenario where Brian is larger than me right now. He's cracking me up because you were like 215 when I was 180. He's like such a disparity. And it's I have reached the point now where I mean, I've been dieting for quite a while. June, July 15th is when I started. Right. It's it's December 5th. It's now starting to like impact me. I've found I am insanely irritable. I. I may have growled at Jenny when she took the covers from me in the middle of the night the other night when she rolled over and pulled them off of me. And then I had to collect myself and be like, okay, Aaron, get it the fuck together. It's not the end of the world. You can't growl at people for that. I just find someone will say just something and I'll just be like, I'll just... I'll think in my head, like, I hate you. And I'm like, okay, calm down. This is not necessary. I was like, I'm just, I'm very irritable, which is new for me, because I'm usually very, very even keel, like emotionally sort of thing. And then I can feel it with training a little bit. Training body parts that are never systemic, systemic like in inducing, like trained arms today. And I was getting like a very big systemic response. Heart rate was like skyrocketing and those sorts of things. And I could just feel the kind of the toll on me. I think a little bit of it lingering from the travel. huge activities on the travel and I was really doing my due diligence to make sure I wasn't shooting myself in the foot and I did set pretty much lows across the board through when I was traveling but the fatigue has accumulated with that. Hopefully, you know, three, four, pretty much four more weeks and in dieting will be wrapped up for me. I'll schedule some photo shoots and those sorts of things even though it makes me feel very, very uncomfortable and I don't like it, but have to capture some all-time bests on the physique. And then the last thing which I'll keep pretty short was the traveling in New Zealand and Australia was very, very cool. But what it ultimately made me realize is how much I really like my life right now. even after like three days, four days, I was like itching to get back to camp and work and in my flow. And it's really helped me just appreciate how much I'm enjoying like this current phase of my life. And I've talked on this in the podcast, like it's nearing its end. So I am really going to try and just enjoy it and realize that I do quite enjoy it. And I feel very fortunate there. That's great perspective, man. Very cool. I think that traveling always makes me feel that way, too. Like it kind of it draws you back and makes and reminds you how much you love your life at home. And then it also allows you to really appreciate everything else that you get to experience as a result of the things that you've done at home. They have created these opportunities for you to then kind of go explore further. So it's this big kind of circle of life thing that is really cool. And I relate. Yeah, precisely. Sweet, will you want to jump in and frame this up for us? Yeah, so kind of from a high level, like Brian said, we're going to have kind of three ways that we're going to walk through things. We have a full commercial gym option, a home slash CrossFit gym. So we're talking, you know, barbell, pull-up rig, maybe an adjustable pair of dumbbells, maybe like a single cable setup, you know, which is on one of those, you know, attachments to the rig or something like that. And then a dumbbell and bands only option. One thing I feel is quite important of a distinction to make is the more equipment typically, you know, to a certain threshold, the better off you will be, right? And this is a conversation that I have with clients sometimes and they're like, hey, I really want to work. You know, they come in, I'm physique focused, right? We're building a physique. But I train in my gym and my home gym. And I'm like, okay, what do we have? And I go, I have a barbell, you know, the standard rogue rack. and like a 53 pound kettlebell. Where's the nearest gym and why don't you train in the gym? And then most often we eventually end up in the gym and then they're like, holy shit, this is going so much better than training in the garage was. And I think the distinction there is for hypertrophy training, right? the more availability typically the better, right? If we're just talking like GPP, we're doing each of the major movement patterns, those sorts of things, like yeah, the garage and the barbell's perfectly fine, but more availability is typically going to give you just more better options for some of the things that we're going to get into next. Yeah. One thing that I think is probably the most prudent way of approaching this, and it's the way that I write programming, is that I always write it for the commercial gym program first, and then I try to disseminate down to the movements that follow in the home gym or the dumbbell-only program. So we find what the optimal movement pattern is, and then we think, how can we emulate this movement with the limited equipment that we have in these other situations. And so I think that that's probably a great place to start is let's just assume that we have everything we have, you know, functional trainers with the movable arms, we have a standard lat pulldown machine, we have all the different like rowing machines that you would possibly want. And so kind of starting there, and we're looking to develop a back day, right, the optimal back day. There's a number of ways you can approach this. And it depends how into the weeds you want to go because you know, in one sense, we can look at the upper back and just call it upper back, or we could separate the upper back out into rear delts, mid traps, rhomboid ish area. Call it just like the upper back shoulder blade area. Terries, which is, you know, the last little helper. It's that thing that most people think is the actual lat that sits on top of the lat. People are like, yeah, my lats are fried. And I'm like, no, your, your terries is fried. It is very confusing though. Uh, so I think that, you know, deciding what area of the upper back you really want to target is important because you're not going to choose three different upper back exercises because guess what? There's also three different regions of the lats. There's the lower lats, iliac, the mid lats, lumbar, and the upper lats thoracic. And so do we also need three exercises to target the three regions of the lats? Cause now we're suddenly at six exercises and that's pretty crazy. And I know your back day doesn't have six exercises in it. So, or maybe it does, but they're definitely not specifically with that in mind. Yeah, I know mine. Mine generally has three. Like I have three exercises on most of my back lap days, not including low back. I don't know if we're even including low back into this back training. I feel like that goes more with hamstrings, maybe. I think we should talk about it maybe even just... Let's talk about it really, really quickly. So this is one where it is in the weeds because you can train your erectors, you know, pretty much. I mean, you can train them isometrically, right? Or even with some motion when we're doing like an RDL, deadlift, those sorts of things. However, you can do like a hyper extension or a back extension on a... pretty much a GHR is going to make the most sense more than like the 45 degree hip extension, but there's like your training spinal flexion without the hip flexion, right? Which it's, we're again, just to be clear, we're in the weeds and it would take you, someone probably showing you the difference, but for instance, like right now in my program, we have the back extensions, right? And what was really funny is it's been so long since I had done them. Like it took me a while to really figure it out again and not just press my hips into the pad and use like my glutes, you know, and lower back. So I think for 98, you know, percent of use cases, maybe 95, it's probably not worth, you know, putting in like hyper extensions unless you have maybe some, some particular issue or back as a very lagging body part and you're throwing everything you have. Yeah, just to clarify a little bit on what you said. So if you're just lowering and raising your torso, whether that's on an RDL or a hip extension, but you're keeping your back in mostly the same position, like call it like a neutral spine as you would in an RDL, you're actually only training the low back isometrically. So if we want to train the function of the erectors, it is the antagonist to the rectus abdominis or the abs in the front. And so when you're training the abs in the front, what you want to essentially do is flex your spine. So you're essentially rounding your spine over and then you're extending your spine. So you're stretching the abs. It's literally the reverse for the back. So you have to be taking your spine through that same range of motion where you're taking it into flexion and rounding your spine over and then uncoiling it and kind of extending at the spine. And so by flexing and extending, going into thoracic extension essentially, then you are actually training the erectors versus just using them as an isometric piece to keep your torso in line. So just one thing to kind of think about there, it's kind of like the cat cow that people would do as a warmup, but you're doing it under load. And that would be how you would effectively train the low back musculature. Yeah, brilliant explanation there. Cool. Yeah. So I guess in designing a program, you know, one of the things that I always think about is that you don't generally have just one back day. I mean, you may like you may just be on a push pull leg split that doesn't have a second iteration of push pull legs, in which case you're doing the same three movements or four movements or whatever it is every single time you train. But I often won't design programs like that. And instead, I'll generally have two back days. where one would be a little more upper back focused with a little bit of lat work. And then one would be a little more lat focused with a little bit of upper back work. Um, do you tend to do the same or how is your back training look? It depends. So if it's something that we're only having like once per week, I will say honestly that I typically will program more lat and less upper back. And my assumption there is many people don't train their lats overly well, so they are typically more upper back developed relative to the lat, so I want to help bring that up. So I will obviously distribute. volume a little bit there. But in some programs, if we are training the back twice per week, I will have like an upper back focus day and then more of like a lat focus day. And then we'll, depending on how what we're doing with rear delts, that might vary on which one it gets placed onto, on or not. Yeah, it's all, like the back is huge. So there's so many things that you need to consider. So you mentioned rear delts, they're separate from upper back. And like, that's absolutely something that you can do. Like you could be, you could say, this is my rear delt focus row or my rear delt focus, you know, sweeping motion or whatever it is. For most people, I tend to group upper back and rear delts into the same category. but just to provide like a little bit of distinction there, like rowing movements and pull-down movements that are pronated or 45 degree rotational handle are all kind of going to work both of those areas. So if you want to really, really bias one area or the other, you're probably going to look at it in this way. For upper back focused work where we wanna do a little less rear delt and try and get a little bit more of call it the upper back region of mid traps and rhomboids and stuff like that. You're going to want to generally have a pronated grip and let your elbows travel just a little bit higher. But as you've pointed out a number of times, that position doesn't feel great for you. And I don't think it really feels great for a ton of people to be in a completely T position where, you know, you're humorous, your tricep bicep is essentially parallel to the ground, so to speak. That position just doesn't often work well with people's dealt anatomy, as far as like crunching things together and things that don't feel great. But what we do generally want for that upper back is we wanna get to retract in the mid upper back. So a cue that I used to always use back in the day was as you get to the contraction point. to think about pinching a pencil or something between your shoulder blades. And so by going into that extreme retraction and pinching back there at the end, you are going to bias slightly more to the upper back. Whereas if you were looking to target more of the rear delt, you wanna keep more of a 45 degree angle in the hand. So using a strictly pronated machine might not be best. we want more of like a rotational handle or some machines these days are even set up with 45 degree handles, which is great. And then what you'll notice is that your elbow comes in a little bit lower. So it's not in that T position like it would be for the upper back but it's also not in tight to your side as we would be for lats, which we'll discuss further. And then the thing with rear delts is you don't have to go all the way back into full retraction but if you wanna find what the best path is for the rear delt, you'll generally find that the point where your arm can retract as far as possible back behind you, like say you're trying to touch your elbows behind your back, that's generally going to be the right line of pull for your rear delts. Whereas if you put your arms out in a direct T position and try to do that, you'll realize you can't get nearly as far back as you could if you drop your elbow down, you can get a lot more retraction back there. So if you think of it like that. Like, hey, upper back, we do want to retract, but we're going to retract understanding that it's not the furthest retracted we could get rear delt. You can retract or not retract, it doesn't really matter, but you could retract all the way if you were in that position. Does that make sense? Do you have any kind of clarification there? No, I mean, I think if you were listening to that and it didn't make sense, go back, rewind it a little bit and then do those motions that Brian said and you'll be like, oh yeah, I can get my elbows significantly closer together when I drop my elbows a little bit. So no, I think it was a wonderful explanation. Sweet. Yeah. So, so that's kind of the basic background of whether if we want to bias upper back or rear delt. And then of course we can do other things to bias rear delt. Like we can actually take the upper back out of it by doing kind of like a cross body sweeping motion. So think about like reaching your arm all the way across your torso and then pulling your arm without using elbow flexion. So you're not pulling like you would be in a row. You're more sweeping. Um, almost like You're AB ducting or pulling the arm away from the body in a sweeping motion. So you can kind of semi-bias the rear delt that way. You'll see a lot of people do that with cables. And then for the home version, you'll see, you know, a bent over rear delt fly or like a sideways prone kind of lateral raised thing on a bench. Not a huge fan of that one for the rear delt specifically. I think cables generally do a better job, but you know, we'll get to kind of what we would do in each situation here. So we have the basics of what would happen for the upper back and the rear delts. And then we have lats. And so lats are, like I said, three regions of lats. The one ubiquitous thing across lat training is that the elbow stays in tight to the body. So when the elbow drifts out away from the body, it disadvantages the lats, which their biomechanical function is they kind of wrap around the rib cage. And so the more that we can stay in this tight motion with the elbow into the body, the more we're going to be able to actually activate the lats. And then as far as whether we're pulling for the upper lats, mid lats or lower lats, that's going to be our angle of pull. Um, so for a lower lat, we're going to start super high. So it's, it maybe is a little counterintuitive. You're like, Oh, lower lat, but you're, you're starting high. Uh, that's because that, that motion brings your elbow down, which is going to, uh, further bias the lower lat for the mid lats. It's not all the way up and it's not horizontal necessarily, it's kind of like somewhere in the middle, call it like if your arm is you're pointing up at something that's 45 degrees off in the horizon or something that would be about where you would be for the mid lats lumbar. And then for the upper lats, the thoracic lats, it's more of that horizontal pole or even slightly low to high. So I really love the low to high pole for the upper lats. I don't do a ton of direct upper lat training. And the reason that I don't is because I feel like they get trained a lot through the upper back and rear delt motions. Because when you when you like naturally as you train the upper lats, you're going to notice that your arm can't stay as tight into your body as it can when you're training a lower lat and you're pulling more vertically. So there is a bit of crossover, I think, between training upper lats and training upper back slash rear delts, not quite as biased as it would be if you went directly into the upper lats. But, you know, we like, like I kind of said in the beginning, we have three or four movements that we're trying to choose to get the entire back and lat region. So in my mind, when I'm programming, you'll very rarely see me program direct work for the upper lats. How about you? Never, I would say very, very rarely like anything for the upper lat, like what might be like the kind of kneeling low to high cable row sort of thing, what might be one. I have used that at one point this year, but it's not something that I'll use frequently. What I will do more often is a chest supported low to high cable row. but typically more for like a mid upper back focus, but you're still with the elbows are gonna be really tight and wide, what I'll typically program with is like two D handles, you know, on the cable clip. So your hands are pretty narrow. So you are, I mean, it's the perfect vector in mind for that upper lat, but the focus is really to stretch the back around the bench, chest supported bench, and then squeeze, you know, the... shoulder blades together on that one. So I really put it in with the emphasis of that mid back or like pretty much like the lower traps part sort of thing, but it is the identical arm and rowing path of the upper lap also. Yeah, yeah, they're kind of like, they can kind of be one in the same. And I think if Cass were listening to this, he would probably be like, I don't know, you know, like you really could bias that further and get a little more. And like, I agree. I mean, I think it depends where you are in your training. Like if you're a super advanced elite IFBB bodybuilder and you need some more upper lat mass, then yes, you should probably do exactly as Cass is saying. But I think for most of our listeners that. are either gen pop or not like competitive bodybuilders that you can kind of kill two birds with one stone with more of that approach that you were saying. So, I think unless we have other things to add to that, maybe it's about going into specific exercise selection and what we would choose for those three to four movements in a commercial gym. Cool. Well, let's maybe, what do you think about each choosing one movement for each category and then, you know, kind of moving forward from there. So we have upper back. kind of rear deltish region, we could choose one to two movements there that really kind of do it for you. Can you repeat that one more time? The internet connection broke up a little bit. yeah. Yeah. So I'm thinking maybe we each choose like one or two movements for each region of the back. And then at the end, we can kind of pull them together and say, these are the three or four that maybe we would recommend for complete back and lat training. Yeah, yeah, let's do that. All right, you want to start? Yeah, so I kind of, I'll go through, let's go through, should we pick like upper back and maybe a lat focused one and then rear delt like that order or. Yeah. Well, I guess the decision is whether we want like, say we have three movements. The decision is, do we want two of them to be lat based in one upper back or do we want, you know, two upper back and one lat? And so maybe we can give four. Why don't we do? Why don't you two of each? And then people can kind of decide which of those three they want to do based on, you know, their individual needs. Yeah, perfect. Yeah, let's do that. So what I will pick for upper back focused first, and this is one of my favorites, and what really frustrates me is it's rare that you will find a good upper back focused row in many commercial gyms. Like a chest supported option that has the handles that allow you to be pronated or a little bit of a semi pronated, that 45 degree angle. And it typically like, you know, pin loaded most often, but there are some plate loaded versions and you can just get a really good chest supported row with what allows that elbows to come high. That when I see that, that will be like a top primary choice for me. Yeah, so I think here that any chest supported machine row option that you have can probably manipulate be manipulated to align with the area that you want to. So my natural inclination is to say a chest supported T bar row. But again, to your point, it depends on what the handles are. So then we also have just a standard chest supported row machine. Like think of your standard like hammer strength, uh, chest supported row. or something along those lines. The hammer strength chest supported row usually has three different handles. It has like a wide one, a neutral one, and then like a lower wide one. So you kind of have three different lines of pull that you can choose from. And then my T-bar row and the one that I train at commercial gyms occasionally, I would say most T-bar rows have two hand grips. They'll generally have a, either a neutral and a wide or a 45 degree and a neutral. Like mine at home has a neutral and a 45. But what I find is that by holding the 45 degree handle out a little wider, it tracks better with a wider arm position. Whereas holding it a little narrower on the 45 degree one will track better with more of that rear delt 45 degree line. The other thing that you can do on either of those machines is you can take a D handle, which I've done numerous times, and you can just slide it over, like literally use the loop on the D handle, slide it over the handles on your row machine. And now you have a rotational handle where you can align things up much better to kind of what you want. Um, but it sounds like for upper back, our first movement both is some sort of chest supported machine row where you have a ton of stability. You don't have to worry about any balancing components or bracing through the midline or anything along those lines, something where you can use the pad to really wrap your, your upper back around it and get that super deep stretch at the bottom. And so yeah, I think that that's a really solid number one. And I don't think it really matters whether it's a t bar row or a chessboard or machine row of some sort. As long as it's a line of pole that is mostly horizontal, it could be slightly low to high, slightly high to low, or directly horizontal, but something along those lines are going to be pretty solid choice there. Yeah. Now moving into my second, and I think it's important to make the distinction that never would I have both of these in the same day because they're pretty much identical movement patterns. But one that I like and what I like is it's kind of hard to fuck this one up when you get the setup right. It's a, it's a, what would be a not prone. Yeah. A prone incline Smith where you have it set up at a higher incline, your kind of chest is over the top of the adjustable bench a little bit, and then you're pretty much putting your elbows in line with how the Smith machine operates, arms a little, hand grip a little bit wider. You cannot use a lot of load on this because you're just not in a very advantageous, you know, rowing position, and then just like rowing high and keeping the chest on the pad. I really, really have grown to like that. this year. Interesting. Yeah. I don't know if I've ever, ever actually done that movement. I tend to stray away from this Smith machine. And then I also would say I even further stray away from having to drag a bench over to the Smith machine. So not that it's a huge issue. It's just, yeah, it's just one of those things. Like I don't train in commercial gyms super often. So I don't often have access to a Smith machine. Kind of the strange thing here is it's very, it's like common practice for each Smith machine to have its own bench in it. So that makes it a little bit more straightforward because it's already there, yeah. dope. And then also you would need to have a bench that isn't super built where you can actually row up into it, because if you have one of those benches that has like, it inclines with like one of those weird bolt attachments, yeah, the arcs, yeah, then you can actually row into it. So my second movement, I'm gonna differ from you. And I think that in this case, because it's a bit different, it could be programmed on the same day as the other one. It doesn't have to be, but it definitely could be. I'm gonna choose a one arm chest supported cable row coming across your body. And so think of if you have a functional trainer and you're gonna train your right arm, but you're gonna pull from the left arm of the functional trainer. So. my right arm, I'm braced up against the bench, just like you would be for a standard chest supported row. And then I'm gonna kind of shift my body, maybe 20 degrees to the side, so that I can really reach around the bench. And then the arm is kind of adducting across the body as I grab the D handle on the opposite side of the functional trainer. So there's already a pre-stretch of the rear delt and upper scapula before I even begin the rep. And then as I pull, it's that more of that like, bow and arrow, like 45 degree rear delt focus. I really, thinking of it as pulling back a bow and arrow, for whatever reason, that analogy just always works for me. And so I'll like extend and stretch and stretch, and then just think of pulling the bow and arrow back, and then stretch, stretch across the body, pull the bow and arrow back. And so I love that movement. I don't love that it's unilateral, because as I've gotten trying to be more efficient with my training, I feel like... unilateral training, it takes double the amount of time, double the amount of effort, you have to fail double the amount of times it's, it's exhausting. But I think that especially for back and chest training, because of the way that some of these regions use the rib cage and need to be stretched across the body, there is advantage to having some unilateral work in your back training, specifically. And so that's kind of my second upper back movement. We have the one arm. cable row chest supported across the body and then we have some sort of chest supported t bar or machine. Yeah, that one's really, really good. I have used that before. The bow and arrow cue or explanation is wonderful because it very vividly paints that picture. Yep. So then we have lats, maybe two movements for lats, whether regardless of kind of what region you want to target here, what do you got for your first one? Yeah, so my first and favorite one, honestly, is going to be a seated low cable row, which would be more of the lumbar lap there. And what I really like is an attachment that's going to get you about shoulder width grip. And how I like to do it is, you know, leaned forward a little bit. And then almost like a bit of like a hollow body position, like I'm kind of crunched down in my abs to round my back a little bit. And then I have a neutral grip and I'm just rolling those elbows like in towards, towards like my hip crease. I really, really like that. I feel like it's between your, your bilaterally braced with both feet. you're you kind of using your core to kind of set you there. And I feel like when you're braced forward a little bit, you're in a very advantageous position to just feel your lats working. I really like that one. And you can load it up pretty well too and feel strong in it. So is this the line of pull is mostly horizontal? Okay, yeah, so we're looking like upper mid lats, for the most part on this one. Yeah, I love that. And I love the cue that the cues that you mentioned about leaning forward and slight flexion in your back. Because one thing that we know about the lats is that when we go into thoracic extension, where we're kind of arching and lifting the chest up, it does kind of And so one thing you'll see a lot in people that know what they're talking about regarding lat training is that they don't often let the elbows pass the midline. And that's not to say that you're training less lats by letting your elbows pass the midline, but you are not training the lats at the point where the elbows do pass the midline. So if you want to spend more quality time in the period of maximal tension for the lats, then by stopping your range of motion where the elbows are in line with the midline, that's going to be the contracted point for the lat. Um, so yeah, there's just no reason to take the elbows past the midline and there's no reason to try to go into this huge thoracic extension thing like we would for upper back or rear delts. So by keeping your, as you said, lean forward and slight rounding in your back, we're going to keep ourselves from lifting the chest, which then puts ourselves into extension lumbar or thoracic extension. and we keep more of that tension directly on the lats. So I love that. I would say my, like, man, I can't get away from using chest supports. So the movement you just mentioned is more of a standard one with your feet on the cable row platform or whatever, and that's fine. Like there's plenty of stability there. I just love not having any doubt about my torso. Like if I'm grinding for a final rep, and I don't have a chest support, it's possible that I kind of do one of those kind of lean back things or move my torso position slightly or whatever, even unintentionally. And so my move is going to be similar to yours in the sense that it is a mostly horizontal line of pull. It is using a cable with a neutral grip hand width that is about shoulder width. I think that lines up really, really well with the lats when you're not trying to go for a stretch, which I'll get to on my next lap movement. Um, and so I will do that with a chest support and then it complicates things slightly because I have access to the prime long bar, which is this bar that allows, it's a spreader bar basically so you can attach your D handles at any width that you want. Um, and so I'm able to set that up in my home gym really well with that bar, uh, perfectly with neutral grip and the exact line of pull that I want with the chest support for people in a commercial gym. I do think that the one Aaron mentioned is probably more accessible as like a similar movement pattern. And I also will add that you could use the same row machine that we mentioned in the beginning for upper back rear delts, whether that's a T-bar row or a chest supported row machine, like a hammer strength row or something along those lines, you could use the neutral grip handles on those and you could set the seat chest pad at a height that allows you to get the exact kind of line of pull that you want. and you could do your, your lumbar mid-lat focused work that way as well. So, um, there's a few different options there that all work. Um, yeah. One thing I will say, if you take that approach that Brian just mentioned, you may find that unilaterally will line up better. Something that I find very often when trying to perform like a lat dominant row on existing machinery is they come really wide. you know, and like my elbows are out wide based on if I'm, if I'm doing it bilaterally and I'm like a decently broad person. Um, so for any of the listeners out there, if you're, if you're doing that and it just feels like you're, I don't know, this feels like my elbows are quite far from my body. Try shifting to a side and performing it unilaterally and you may find that you can line things up a little bit better. Yeah, it really it really depends on the machine. So my T bar row that I have at home, the neutral grip handles are perfectly shoulder width or even slightly inside of shoulder width. So my elbows can track really in tight to the body. And I've seen a number of machines also that have those great neutral grip handles. But yeah, to Aaron's point, like if they are set too wide, then no, it's not really a lat row like if your elbows are tracking out. So that like that leads to the idea of being a savvy consumer of back training. Like you can manipulate the machine to suit you. So as Aaron said, like you could take that hammer strength row, which is not the best lat row. And by doing kind of the cast thing where you step back a little bit or kneel down and use, you know, the, the chest pad as an arm brace. Now suddenly you're able to line that up much better with the lats. So it's being savvy and being able to manipulate the machines that you have available to create the stimulus that you want. But I think both of us are settled on a movement that is a neutral grip shoulder width, some kind of row where we're maintaining kind of a suck down midline and not letting the elbows pass the midline as we pull. And so there's a number of components there, but I think that we're agreed at least on, you know, what we would wanna do there as far as these numerous options that we have. Yeah. And then my second, man, I've deviated a lot from this in the second half of this year, but I think my second choice would still be a, not a chest supported, but I'd have an adjustable bench supported unilateral like Iliac lat row. So not... quite vertical. The kind of cue that I will use is like if, if you set your gaze directly in front of you and then you set your gaze like up at the corner of this, of the room you're in, assuming you're not in like a 30 foot warehouse gym or something like that, kind of like the corner of the ceiling, like that's the arm path I want. So not like insanely vertical to where it feels like my your shoulder is like rotating, but like you can lift your arm up to where you're not getting any like change in the position of your scap or anything. And then like, again, rowing down towards that like hip crease. I love that. I love that exercise. I feel like it's performing it unilaterally. It just allows you to focus on what you, how you really wanna contract and then using your body weight and then whatever bench or adjustable bench you have, you can kind of brace in different ways. But that's a row that I feel I can connect with really, really strongly. And it is quite easy to teach to others as well, which I think has the benefit. Just to not confuse people, I feel like using the word pulldown for something that comes high to low might be a better than using the word row, even though, you know, it can kind of interchangeable. How are you doing that? Like are you using a machine like a plate loaded machine or a cable or does it not really matter? cable, and the beauty there is, I mean, if you have a functional trainer, you can set that up, any kind of adjustable single stack cable, assuming it's not like up against the corner of the wall in the gym, you should be able to set that up as well. Yeah, I would say I would have agreed with you a year ago. And since talking with CAS and going to EndOne and seeing kind of some of the new research and work that they've done on the Iliac lower lat region, they've found that directly overhead seems to be a better position to fully stretch that Iliac lat region. And I've kind of found the same. It took me a... four to six sessions to really nail it. Because like you, I felt like when my arm came up to my ear, I was losing tension on the lat, and it felt like a lot of it was going into this like kind of upper back region as I was reaching up. But since really spending the last six plus weeks, hammering that new N1 sideways iliac lat pull down. So essentially what you're gonna do is set up an inclined bench directly underneath. the cable that's coming from above you. And you're going to turn your body sideways on the bench so that you're facing one way and then kind of use your elbow or your arm to brace against the incline bench. So you're not leaning against the incline bench sideways. You're bracing against it with your arm. And then as you pull up overhead, you're literally reaching sideways across your body. And so if any of you guys that are listening, if you just reach your arm up overhead and then lean to the side as you're doing that, you'll feel this incredible stretch along the entire side of your body there. And doing that under load has just been insane. It's like, I don't get my lats sore really, but in week five, which was the final week of my 50 day meso last time, I did get some minor lats soreness. from doing a drop set of that movement. So that's another thing I've instituted in my programming is drop sets, which I haven't done for years. But I did a set to failure followed by some partials and then dropped the weight and did another set to failure followed by some partials and had some soreness in my lower lats, which was really cool because it shows me at least that the movement I'm using is training the area that I think it's training. And so I really love that one. I will say that the complexity of the setup for it makes it a little bit problematic in a commercial gym. You're not gonna drag a bench over to like the perfect cable machine and then set your body in the perfect position and expect nobody to look at you funny or ask to, you know, like try and use any of the equipment that you've occupied. So this movement can be emulated in a standard lat pull-down machine. So the one that has your knees trapped underneath the thigh pads. You can essentially turn your body sideways on there, put one D handle on the thing. So where you would usually put the wide lat bar or whatever the wide pull-down bar, you would just put one D handle and you kind of emulate all the stuff I was just talking about in there. So you don't put your thighs directly underneath or you do put them under, but then you kind of twist your torso so that you get that kind of over and around stretch on the lat. And so that would be a much more feasible way of doing it in a commercial gym. Now we were, please correct me if I'm wrong. You're going to pick a rear delt exercise, right? We're going to have one. So we have essentially an upper back, a lat, and we're going to go with one more, correct? Well, we have two lats and two upper back rear delts already. We have four. So I think we're probably pretty good. Yeah. Unless you want to do like, what's your favorite isolated rear delt movement? So I can't say I have a favorite like isolated rear delt. I'll do, you know, the, like the peck, the reverse peck deck sometimes, those sorts of things. Even the cable setup, I don't love it. My personal favorite rear delt exercise is just going to be like a row, a dumbbell row actually, the one times that I really do like it. That just kind of biases the rear delt position because I'm super hunched over and putting my rear delts directly in line of the gravitational pull. Yeah, I don't love any isolated rear delt movements. I had the rear delt sweep on the cable in my program last meso, and I did it like two or three times, and I just don't love it. I really find that the best rear delt work for me comes from rows with elbow flexion. So basically a standard row with your elbows, slightly outside of your torso. I just get a lot more out of those. You're so limited in load when you do the isolated sweeping thing. Um, I just feel like I can get a lot more in there, a lot more tension driven to the rear delt when I have elbow flexion or IE bending of the arm as well. So that's my thought on that. Yeah, and I'll kind of just really quick piggyback onto that so we can move on. I do agree with what Brian just said and I do find I get the best. Rear delt stimulus when I use a bit of like a shotgun approach to the overall surrounding areas of the rear delt and that might be you know like a bent over lateral dumbbell raise or like technically like a rear delt raise sort of thing but not trying to like pinpoint it but just hey I know if I move my you know elbow in this arm path and put a good amount of work into it I will get a stimulus there. Yep. Well, we have like 10 minutes left and we got to get to home gym and dumbbell. So I feel like we can get through this relatively quickly because more or less what we want to do is emulate the movement patterns that we created from the full gym one. So our first movement on the full gym was the chest supported, uh, 45 degree or pronated, uh, machine row of some sort. And so I really think the, the easy, the way that I always emulate this in programming for home gym, is to do a chest supported dumbbell row. And then you can, you know, manipulate your elbow position to whichever position you're trying to train, whether it's out a little wider for upper back or a little more in with that 45 degree angle for mid or rear delt and mid back. Any dumbbell row with your chest draped over is great for my women that sometimes complain about having to do a chest supported row. Uh, we will often use a head supported row. So you would take an inclined bench and you would just kind of drop your head down on the back of the bench. And while that doesn't support your torso, it does keep you from using your torso for momentum and you can still manipulate your hand position however you want there. So any thoughts on that first one? No, that's exactly where my head was at with those two things specifically. So we can move on. Cool. And then our second movement was we had different ones. I had the one arm across the body cable row and you had a, uh, Oh, the Smith Machine. Okay. Yeah, so to emulate the Smith Machine one, you would essentially do it with a barbell. That would be the exact same as the Smith Machine. You would set up a chest support, you would use a barbell. So it would be very similar to the dumbbell row that we just said, except it would be with a barbell. So it would manipulate your hand position into a pronated position. So in that case, you would probably wanna perform the dumbbell row with your 45 degree hand position and you would, you do the barbell row with the pronated hand position because you don't have another choice. Regarding emulating the one I chose, I think it's a one-arm dumbbell row and you can do it chest supported, you can do it with your knee on the bench, you can kind of do it like a crock row as they say, where your hand is supported on something in your bent over. So what you're not gonna be able to do is get that super deep stretch across the body just because a dumbbell goes against gravity, so it's straight up and down. So you can't stretch across the body, but that doesn't mean that you still can't stretch at arm's length. and get a nice rear delt stretch in there. So those would be the kind of home options there. Anything to add to that one? Cool, moving on to the third movement that we chose. This was Aaron with the lumbar focused cable row where you're kind of leaned forward a little bit and the elbows come into the midline. Mine was similar, but it was with a chest support and a cable as well. Same movement pattern though, with the elbow positioning and all of that stuff. And so, man, in this case, it does get a little more complicated just because we've already done two different versions of dumbbell row. And so my inclination, when I start looking at the more lat specific stuff, like, yes, you can use dumbbells, you could do a chest supported dumbbell row, just like we did with the 45 degree hand position, and you could move your hands to neutral and you could pull only to your midline. And it would be a different stimulus than what you did in the first dumbbell row. But my I tend to lean on bands in this case for people that don't have access to cables, because we've already got one barbell row, basically, we've already got a dumbbell row. And so my inclination is to line up exactly as Aaron described. So you're going to tie a band to something that is around, you know, horizontal to where you're going to be. And by you can grab one hand in each of the loops of the band after you kind of loop it around. And If you can get the right... Is that a bird? If you can get the right... What was I gonna say? The right distance from the attachment point, then you can actually train the lats in the short position pretty well. The problem with the band is you're never gonna get a good stretch because the band is gonna lose tension as you get to the stretch position. But I'll always set up far enough away from the anchor point. that I do have at least some tension at the stretch position. And then yes, it does get really hard as your elbows get into your midline, but I don't have a huge problem and I'll coach people to just short the range of motion at the contracted position for the band. So we're just gonna pull that band down, kind of driving the elbow down like Aaron mentioned. And it's okay if the elbow doesn't even get all the way to the torso, because the lats are gonna be more in their active range anyways. So... It depends, man. Like a band is a great one. Doing a dumbbell row neutral grip, chest supported is also gonna be great. It's just a matter of whether you think it's too monotonous to do multiple versions of a dumbbell row in the same workout. What do you think? One thing I will add there is if in your home gym, the functional fitness facility, you have D handles, or there has been this tool floating around where it's like a little hook thing that can basically give you a neutral grip option of what would typically be either pronated or supinated. They're like these little hooks that can hook onto the barbell. I would use like an inverted row there. So you can set them up, you know, narrow, close to the body. would, it would be tough to load it. Yeah, you would be body weight effectively. I mean, you could have someone put a plate on your chest or something along those lines, but, yeah, it does. It does make it hard. I mean, I could do 20 of those, you know, so it's a bit different there. And then moving on to the fourth movement, which for both of us was that more lower, mid lower lat region focus. For my home gym people, the number one stunner I go to here is some sort of vertical neutral grip pull up. And so I actually really love the rack pull up more than I love the standard pull up. Um, because people tend to butcher standard pull-ups. Like if you do a lat focused, standard, neutral grip pull-up, you have to keep your torso in such this tight little ball. Like we've talked about, we don't want to get into thoracic extension and lift the chest. And we definitely don't want to kick our knees and we don't want to wobble our torso. What's the word? Like just manipulate torso position throughout the rep, right? It wants to be more stable. So I love a rack pull up and I love throwing D handles over the barbell for the rack pull up. So for anyone that doesn't know a rack pull up is essential. You put a barbell in a squat rack or you can use a Smith machine. You can drag a bench over. You can even put a dumbbell on your hips. If you need to add some weight, slide some D handles over the barbell and boom, you have a neutral grip pull up. And then because of the way that movement is set up where your feet are slightly in front of you, it allows you to stay more in that kind of hunched over crunch position and really focus on just driving the elbows down toward the mid, toward the hips. So that's definitely my go-to for home gym training for lower lats. What do you think? That is exactly what I was gonna say. Some form of the neutral grip pull-up or the neutral grip kind of rack chin is a long time old school favorite of mine. Yeah, and we'll occasionally use banded pull downs for that as well, where you can anchor the band up high and you can do them either one arm or you can kind of do it like we did with the row that I mentioned earlier and do it two arms. But yeah, I think the rack pull-up is definitely a better suitable option there. So then we move on to the dumbbell and banded program and we try to emulate the four movements that we had. The first one is. The same, it's a dumbbell row chest supported or head supported depending on how you wanna do it. The second one, you had the barbell row or Smith Machine row for the two different programs and I had the kind of cross body row. So again, we're kind of stuck in the same position where now, hey, we don't have a barbell. So you kind of just have to use dumbbells. When you're left with dumbbells and bands, that's what you have. Like, do you wanna use a band or do you wanna use a dumbbell? Cause that's all you got. So I think for that second one, I would probably opt for a one-armed dumbbell row, you know, kneeling on the bench, croc row, chest supported, whatever, it doesn't really matter. A one-armed dumbbell row, you can manipulate your arm path to train the area of the back that you wanna train. Moving on to the third movement where we had that hunched over cable row for you. I said that you could do it with a band or we could do it with dumbbells. literally applies the same to the dumbbell program, you know, pick your poison, whether you want to do the banded version or not. Um, and then the final movement, you know, they don't have a, in theory, these people working out at home that have dumbbells and bands, they don't have a, a barbell to do rack pull ups with. Um, and so This is always the hardest one for me because I think the best movement, the one that's gonna produce the most results for people is to do a towel pull-up. And so this is essentially an idea where you would open a door in your house and you would take a big bath towel and you would loop it over the door. So there's essentially a neutral grip here. And most people do these with their feet still on the ground. So you know you're reaching overhead, you're stretching your lats, your feet are on the ground. and then you use your feet as little as possible as you pull yourself up and essentially do an assisted pull-up, so to speak. For people that are really strong, you can do that without your feet on the ground and you can just loop a towel over the door and do pull-ups. Unless you're a really massive dude, most doors are not gonna rip off the hinge doing that. I do caution you to at least probably try it assisted first and then maybe like tentatively. Try a rep before you really go like full force into pulling as hard as you can. Because I have heard stories of doors ripping off hinges. I think it's like a one percenter thing, but definitely good to be aware of that. And then if you're somebody like in our group programs, I know a lot of people are anti door towel pull-ups for whatever reason. They feel like they can't get the movement right. They don't feel safe. They don't have a door that's suitable. They don't want their hands to grip on the towel and all these all these different reasons. I think you're kind of left with the one arm banded Iliac pull down. And so we have a video for this in our data in our library. But basically, you're going to kneel down as you would with a cable. And you're going to set the band up high. So the anchor point is high, whether that's like a top of a door or a hook in your house or I don't know exactly what a really high object or pole to anchor it on. But I've been creative and in every house that I've been in, I've been able to note where I would hang that if I were to do that, you know? So it is doable, you just have to be a little creative, think outside the box. But it's all the same cues we've talked about. So it's really stretching up at the top, being far enough back from the anchor point that you do have a little bit of tension at the stretch position, not stressing how far your elbow comes down because just the fact that you're doing a humeral depression, essentially bringing your elbow down toward your hip. It doesn't matter how far it gets, just that you're contracting and stretching the lat through that range of motion. And so that's the one that I tend to program for our dumbbell and band program. And there we have it. So the swaps and check downs is what I'll often call them for the functional training facility and then the band home one. So I think that the thing that's really cool walking through that is you see how a lot of the effort is into emulating the same movement pattern. And then obviously many of them, I would say, are very, very good swaps. Once we get into some of the band and dumbbells, only things depending on your level of strength, that some may become less appropriate. But if you're a beginner or anything like that, like there's going to be plenty in, because you have so much room of progress to be made still. Yeah, and anyone that is doing a dumbbell and band only program is not trying to maximize their physique. They're not that they're not going to make gains because we've had plenty of people make tons of gains on our dumbbell only banded program. But in reality, like you are not going to maximize your physique. You're not going to be a competitor trying to step on stage and being like, oh, yeah, I train with bands and dumbbells. Like, that's just not going to happen. So given the constraints of what you have, I think those are all very viable, suitable. swaps that you can use. Yeah, so to put a button on this one, or a bow on this one, hope this is beneficial and just informational is the word I'm looking for you guys, and just how our thought process goes around a little bit of designing things and some of the reasons why, and look for more on our design series coming out over the coming weeks and months. As always guys, thank you for listening. Brian and I will talk to you next week.