The Cardio Episode - Zone 2 and Zone 5 | ETP#104

[aaron_straker]: 0:29

What's up, guys, Happy Tuesday? Welcome back to another episode of Eat Train Prosper Today's episode is episode number one hundred four. What Brian and I are calling the cardio episode.

[bryan_boorstein]: 0:41

Uh,

[aaron_straker]: 0:42

I think it's very,

[bryan_boorstein]: 0:42

uh,

[aaron_straker]: 0:42

very funny that we are actually doing this, Considering the podcast is called Eat Train Prosper, but as you guys have probably noticed from some of the just kind of a side conversations and things that Brian and I have had throughout, let's say, like the last quarter of the podcast, we have been Ing in a little bit more cardio ourselves. I'm not sure if that is us becoming wiser or just becoming more frank, Kind of understanding of the fact that we are not getting any younger and things become

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:14

M.

[aaron_straker]: 1:14

a little

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:15

hm,

[aaron_straker]: 1:15

bit more important as your age, and just seeing that with client hell, and sorts of things. But we're going to cover kind of what Brian put together the frame of this episode and we're going to cover kind of things that we're seeing how we would recommend implementing use, And then a little bit more in terms of practical type stuff. But before we jump into that as always, Brian, kick us off with some updates please.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:38

Yeah, I'm excited for this episode. I have obviously been flirting around this this topic for a number of months now. and so I had a ton of d. M. and by a tone, I mean like four, but like a ton of dmcrtain. People being like you guys really need to do an episode on cardio, and given that it's something that that is part of my updates these days consistently, I felt like it would be a prudent move to kind of do a deeper dive into that. So that is How we got here, But before we get going, so last week we both talked about or injuries, our limitations and set backs, which I thought was a great kind of intro to that episode and to provide further kind of update on that. I. As of last week, I had all the good intentions of skiing with my dad on Thursday for this trip that we were taking, but as I was packing the car up, Go on the trip, I decided it would probably be prudent to actually make sure that my hamstring can do dynamic movement, and so I started, kind of like bending over faster, you know, with less caution, Um, changing direction stuff like that, and I quickly realized that my hamstring was not okay under those conditions. It's it was a bit of a facade because it's okay when I'm biking or when I'm doing quads in the gym, But very much not okay when exposed to unpredictable aspects. And what is skiing Well, it's kind of the definition of unpredictability. You don't know what kind of bump is going O show up whether the lighting is going to change if somebody is going to get in your way, And the one thing I couldn't do pain free was bend over quickly. I would always have to bend over very cautiously. Kind of make sure that I'm not sticking my butt too far back. I'm just more bending over from my back. These are things you can't control on the ski slope. And so ultimately I decided that would be a poor decision in my life and ended up taking my dad up there anyways, but instead of skiing we did a two hour. I call it the executive cycle, but it's basically hot tub, cold dunk, steam shower, cold dunk, hot tub, cold dunk there. their cold dunk wasn't exactly cold like I had hoped it to be. So it was a indoor outdoor pool That I would say was probably in the seventies, So by no means was the temperature like cold like a cold dunk. You would expect it to be in the forties. Probably the pool was in the seventies, but it was six degrees outside, and so when you would get in seventy degree water and be outside, it was actually this extremely cool refreshing experience and then, especially coming from the steam room for fifteen or twenty men. And you're just like you know, And then you go into the seventy degree pool and it just it was perfect, So that experience was great. We did dinner. Really nice dinner. I completely over ate first time I had done that in a while, and felt awful the next day. But we did dinner. we did a movie and then we went home. yea hand up what you got,

[aaron_straker]: 5:02

How did like? How did so overrate? In terms of like, we just ordered a bunch of deserts or like, Did it just sneak up on you? I'm just curious here,

[bryan_boorstein]: 5:11

So no. here's here's how it started. So dinner actually itself wasn't super unhealthy. I got a appetizer, which was like a butostataso, as like some beef on on a stata type thing. Um, and then my dinner was sirloin steak with braccolini and mashed potatoes, so none of that was too bad. They had the most incredible bread rolls that they brought with butter, and my dad is quito, and Casionally, he'll dip out of quito just very briefly, but he never goes like super crazy with it right. And so he ad a Caesar salad or something like that, and he wanted a piece of bread, but I had already eaten all three of the bread rolls that they brought us, so they ordered a. They brought a second batch of bread rolls, which my dad decided to break off one quarter of one bread roll. And then I was left with three and a half bread rolls in this basket, and I was like Well, These can't go to waste. So three tablespoons of butter later, I had finished the remaining three bread rolls, now putting my total to six and a half bread rolls. And then I did end up deciding to say you know what the day is screwed. Now I may as well just have desert to. and um, yeah, then we watched a movie. Fell Aslee with Aaron and I were talking off air about New Sigma Nutrition podcast where they're talking about Biological night and Melotonein rise, and how Really bad idea to eat like super close to when your Melton rises. And essentially what I was doing was eating exactly when my melatona was rising and eating thousands of calories At that point, so basically I slept awful, woke up a number of times sweating in the middle of the night, because there's just way too many calories trying to be burned through my body and woke up, you know, lethargic and all that stuff the next day, So it's just one of those things you know. I don't do it too often any more, but It was enjoyable in the moment and then immediately regretful. You know, that's kind of the way it goes. So anyway, that was the ski trip. We came home and all was good That afternoon. I actually got to train my ham string, which was up next on the agenda, and not really surprising, but I couldn't really do much with my right ham string. I could use twenty five pounds on my single seated like girl, which was All kind of more than I thought I'd be able to do. But I was using three times that for my right hand string, and then I could do hip extensions, but I didn't use any weight and I had to move really slowly, So it's it's definitely lingering. It's not something that. Based on how fast it healed in the first day or two, I thought that I was going to be able to ski and then I thought it was going to be fully better within a matter of a week, And it's just you know, it's one of those things. It's just lingering a little bit, but it's Eighty percent eighty five percent better. At this point, How is how's your need doing?

[aaron_straker]: 8:15

So let's see last last week on the podcast I talked about the day before I had injured it. I was able to train legs yesterday, so literally one week after I opted to not take the hack squat because that's how I injured it, and instead I replaced that with the leverage squat. so it's kind of like the poor man's you know pendulum sort of thing,

[bryan_boorstein]: 8:39

Yep,

[aaron_straker]: 8:39

which is a machine I really really like and I was actually able to train it like quite hard, high Backed off like one stack on everything. so instead of like the twelfth stack on the leg extension, I did the eleven, you know, but still took them pretty much to failure, and I was very ginger with warming up and seeing how it was going to go, I was able to push it quite hard and then do some unilateral split squat. stuff. Um, Unfortunately, the instability is still kind of there. I went to a yoga class today with with Jenny. We did a little Valentine's yoga class date, Um, and I quickly realized like Ney is not you know. Back to normal, any kind of like yoga type stuff you know, Like the lunges in moving and then twisting in a lunge like, felt very very unstable, and I was like very ughliketrepidaciously moving through some of the poses so that was kind of like Okay. It's not you know. I'm good to train it when I can load it in. Like Okay. Here, my feet planted in this bi lateral position. You know, my feet. My toes are straight in front of me. I can get full flexion squat. like that stuff is find the most risky maneuvers and this one actually popped up today because I had a pressing session moving heavy dumb bells. like when you're putting like the seventies, the seventies are heavier back and you like laterally step, you know like that sort of thing is still like, very kind of sketchy. Um, So we'll see from there. I'm going to start incorporating a lot of just balance type Working and seeing if it's just some of the stabilizers in there. Potentially it is the miniscus. I'm not really sure. I don't think I'm ever really going to find out. so just going to continue kind of working around that.

[bryan_boorstein]: 10:30

No, I mean, that's kind of. I think what I expected like it's just when An you're when you're in that liksagital plane and your feet are planet, like you said and you can control variables. It kind of feels like things are okay like I kind of feel the same. You know when I'm biking like I'm like. Wow, I can actually bike with no limitation and then as soon as I start trying to move laterally or do anything dynamic and it just feels very limited, so I guess you know, just be thankful that we can at least keep training and and and the rest will heal kind of as we continue strengthening. And I guess

[aaron_straker]: 11:01

Yeah, that's that's the hope for me. at least with this one.

[bryan_boorstein]: 11:06

Cool well, just to be quick on the rest of my updates here. I am leaving for San Diego in two days. It's uh, it'll be the February sixteenth when we leave on Thursday, And so we are taking the southern route because there is supposed to be a massive storm on the continental Divide, literally, Tuesday and Wednesday, Starting today Into tomorrow. Some areas are going to get twelve plus inches. I think we're only upposed to get between four and see, Which is still still somewhat significant. Um, pretty concern that they're going to cancel school on Wednesday, which is supposed to be my last day to pack and do work and get ready before we leave for San Diego, And I really don't think we're going to have school. I also have two podcasts and a zoom that I'm supposed to do that day, So we will. We will see how all of that goes. M moving on. Brian's program just started its new hypertfecycle, Yes, Today, February thirteenth, great time to hop on. We're in de load week, So even when this episode comes out the following week, it will just be the beginning of week one. Um, lots of new sign ups Been super cool to see all of the people kind of trilling the program out. I think there's some excitement around the addition of cardio and so that will be obviously our topic today as we get into it. and I'll talk about that. I did do my day on Brian's program just a few days ago. That is the dealt and qua specialization day. So it's basically you know, pretty even over four days, and then the fifth day is just dealt and quads that day was super fun. It's got some same muscle group super sets for the Delt. Actually two different sequences of that and then the quad sequence is short, overload leg extension directly into sissy squads, And that's one of the worst feelings I've ever had and training. And it was A De load week so it was like two to three r r on leg extensions, and like five r r on Sissy squats, and I still finished each set like grabbing my quads and bending over because it was so painful, so I both look forward to and don't look forward to progressing that one over the next few weeks. Um. final update. I mentioned last week that I. I think I mentioned that when I got my blood work done, I added the a b Est as a test for limpid health better than l. d, l and treguliserides. According to new research, so I got my A B result back, and it was fifty four and anything under ninety is considered good. I would. trying of screw that range to sixty is kind of what I've heard is that you want that a b number under sixty, even though the blood work says under ninety is okay, So I was happy I was fifty four. pretty pretty pretty cool with that, but really disappointed in life Tension delivering the remaining part of my blood work because it's now been seven days and I've emailed them and I still have no additional blood work results back. So impatiently waiting for those, but I'm happy to get the a p B back.

[aaron_straker]: 14:21

Is it? You said seven, seven days since you got your labs drawn,

[bryan_boorstein]: 14:26

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 14:27

I would say like. And so you got some results back, but not all of them.

[bryan_boorstein]: 14:32

I got a p B the next day, but that was the one single result and then the rest of the labs haven't come back yet.

[aaron_straker]: 14:38

Yeah, I've I've seen that with clients and stuff, or they come back like half and half. I've had some turn around and like three days. I've had other ones take like two full weeks to come back.

[bryan_boorstein]: 14:49

Yeah, I'm just disappointed. I really wanted that information,

[aaron_straker]: 14:52

Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 14:52

but it's cool. It will come when it comes.

[aaron_straker]: 14:54

yeah, the last update for me in this one's like I'm I'm kind of excited about this, so I am like full on balls deep n my like gaining season per se. Um, and I decided that like I'm going to treat, because it's very very common that like, Oh, well, it's calory surfplus. The margins for success are bigger. You're a little bit more laxidasical. with it, you kind of fall by the wayside of some of your structures, Because Okay, as long as I'm dropping the pennies in the bucket right, it's gonna going to turn out That is what I had historically done in the past, and then kind of bring it back really quickly last winter, botched gaining season, and then when summer came around, you know, I had. I had a coach. I dieted and I was like, Wow, you know I do. not. This is worse. This is objectively worse than the previous year, and that's kind of a really big bumper when you have like an entire year investment cycle just to show you know, Get there and be like, Yeah, this is this isn't It's a lot of time investment to realize like, Oh, I fucked up, so this year I'm a little bit more. you know, I've like a little bit of vengeance, like vendetta, kind of on that. So Ben, taking everything super super seriously, I've been like following my meal plan pretty much to a t on like I'm on like week six or seven right now, Lo and behold, it is working better. What? what's kind of wild to me is I am. I don't have answers for this, you know, But this is purely kind of anecdote. Things are progressing like my weights are progressing. like really, really good. I did eat late last night, but I woke up. I was like a two, four point five, which is like you know,

[bryan_boorstein]: 16:36

M.

[aaron_straker]: 16:36

back at the end of in December, I was still in the like one ninety six S, sort of thing, So weight

[bryan_boorstein]: 16:42

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 16:42

is moving and there is body fat with that, but I'm also like, really happy to report that I'm not really concerned about the body fat. It's not like quickly

[bryan_boorstein]: 16:50

Nice

[aaron_straker]: 16:51

coming on. It's just like notable, the lower back, the lower Ab. sort of thing, especially seated, but I'm really really excited. I want to push to kind of the top end of that target range, which is going to be our own, like to a weight. And then I think I might well go from there sort of thing, but I am excited for for that, so it's just been the last thing that I have here Is the one thing. Then this is what Brian you and I talked about Off air. The meal frequency is the first time I've actually like stuck to a high Frequent. You like this with a lower protein in take per serving to really kind of maximize the m p. S. signaling Um. and so far it's actually working quite well, which has been, and I haven't been skipping as either, which is very unprecedented.

[bryan_boorstein]: 17:42

And no cramps.

[aaron_straker]: 17:43

That one time it did, But it's recent

[bryan_boorstein]: 17:46

When

[aaron_straker]: 17:46

enough.

[bryan_boorstein]: 17:46

you were sick,

[aaron_straker]: 17:47

It's recent enough, though I'm terrified like you know, when you get a pump like in your shoulders or chest or ever, Man, this feels good in the abs like I can't distinguish be. Is this just an Ab pump, or am I on the verge of like ruining my entire day and

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:02

Uh,

[aaron_straker]: 18:02

I can get through the first

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:03

uh,

[aaron_straker]: 18:03

set, but after that I'm like just on high alert like I hope. I just hope it doesn't happen again.

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:10

That's hilarious. I have not been doing abs at all. I haven't done a single set in probably three or four months.

[aaron_straker]: 18:15

Oh,

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:16

Just one of those things. you know.

[aaron_straker]: 18:18

Yep,

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:18

I, actually, I was surprised because I haven't done abs at all, and so in my last cycle, first try at the strength cycle, I had waited pull ups in there, and because my s literally hadn't been trained at all, I got so sore in my abs the first time I did waited pull ups like you know, this is the type of soreness you get after six d, g, h, Ds, or something like that, and from King, pull up. Um, but then you know, repeated botefectdidn't get sorry Goin after Ah, are you? I know. you're generally a high protein guy like I know, especially when you die at your high higher protein guy. Like I've seen you up at two fifty to seventy Stuff like that.

[aaron_straker]: 18:55

Hm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:55

Where's the protein in the gaining? His?

[aaron_straker]: 18:57

Two, fifty, two, fifty to fifty five.

[bryan_boorstein]: 18:59

Wow,

[aaron_straker]: 19:00

Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 19:00

Yeah, that is quite high. All right. Cool. Should we jump into the topic

[aaron_straker]: 19:05

Let's dive into some cardio.

[bryan_boorstein]: 19:08

All right, So yeah, we're talking about cardio specifically. we're going to focus on zone two and zone five, which are kind of two extremes of the cardiozones because zone one would be kind of consider walking, or like lower level effort, where, like I would call that like you're all day, no issue pace like you could just keep it conversational. No heavy breathing. That sort of thing. One distinction. I do want to kind of clarify Real quick is You know, as I was going through and researching this episode, I've always operated on one through five zone system where zone one is walking. Like I was saying, Zone Two is kind of what we're going to discuss today, and then zone Five is your top end zone. But what I found as I was googling the zones, especially when I started googling Zone Two is that it was pulling up a ton of information from the cycling world, and apparently they use six zones, So the confusing part here is that when you talk about zone two in the way that I'm going to talk about it, it's one way, but when you talk about zone two on the sixth zone system, zone two is about ten percent easier than what I'm going to talk about zone to as Um. And so I think there actually is confusion around that because I've even heard people in the Paragon Facebook group being like No Zone Two is just barely above walking, and other people being like No Zone Two Is like pretty miserable. You have to do it for an hour type thing, and I kind of fall more on the side of zone to being moderately difficult than on the side of zone to being easier. And so I think that's just that distinction between whether you're using the six zone system or the five zone system, as we're talking about this, so just as we go through this today, I will be referring to this as as the Five One system. Have you? Are you familiar with that distinction or had you not heard of that?

[aaron_straker]: 21:07

Yeah, I saw it, but I mean the overwhelming majority of everything that I've read in like look at. it's the five zone system. Like the watches and things I've seen are still all using the five zones.

[bryan_boorstein]: 21:21

So I actually think the garment and I'm not a hundred percent share on this, but Laura might coo a paragon.

[aaron_straker]: 21:28

Hm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 21:28

She. She was pointing out how her zone too had her heart rate between. Like might be butchering this, but it was something like one ten to one, twenty nine or something like that, which, for a twenty nine year old she's twenty nine. That should be a zona above that. so I think that the default for the garment was set for zone to to be much Your pace. What is your show?

[aaron_straker]: 21:52

My zone two and my garment is one twelve to one thirty, which

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:00

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 22:00

is

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:00

so

[aaron_straker]: 22:00

like

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:00

that's

[aaron_straker]: 22:00

an

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:01

also too easy.

[aaron_straker]: 22:01

easier. However,

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:02

That's

[aaron_straker]: 22:03

it's calling my

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:03

yeah.

[aaron_straker]: 22:04

zone five, one sixty seven and above,

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:08

So it is a five zone system that just seems to be shifted back a little

[aaron_straker]: 22:11

Shifted

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:11

bit or whatever.

[aaron_straker]: 22:11

down a little bit.

[bryan_boorstein]: 22:13

Slightly. That's interesting. so either way, there is definitely some variance there and so maybe check your device and stuff like that, but I'm going to go through a ton of ways here that we can assess zone to as I describe it, without having to worry about what your watch tells you anyways. Okay, so why? what? what are the distinctions? Right? Zone Two is generally a sustainable output that is usually within the range of forty five to ninety minutes. So it's It's quite long. and if you're going to sustain something for ninety minutes or forty five minutes, it has to be sustainable. Like if you're pushing hard for forty five minutes, then it's probably not something you can sustain for ninety minutes, but you should be able to sustain zone two for forty five to ninety minutes, meaning it's not your all day sustainable pace like you couldn't go walk home Arathon and be like I was in zone two, but at the same time you're also not pushing so hard that you can't sustain it for at least ninety minutes, so I think that that's an important distinction there, whereas when we're talking about zone five, we're talking about getting your heart rate up to above ninety percent of your age predicted maximum, or if you knew your actual maximum, that would obviously be better than your age predicted maximum. but age predicted maximum being to twenty mine Your age. so for me that would be one eighty would be my my maximum heart rate. I have actually seen my heart rat on my watch get up into the high one seventies many times from just biking up a hill. Um, so my guest is that my actual max heart rate is probably slightly above one eight. Like if I were to do a twenty second air dine sprint, like as hard as I could possibly go. I think it would get above one eighty. I don't know that for sure, because I haven't seen it, but I think That that would be kind of some cool information for people to have if you want to get on the air line and do that. I also would say that from my experience, your heart rate doesn't peak after the first twenty second interval. It usually probably takes three or four intervals for you to actually reach that maximum, so you may have to do it a couple of times.

[aaron_straker]: 24:26

M. Hm.

[bryan_boorstein]: 24:27

Any any thoughts on any of that, Aaron?

[aaron_straker]: 24:29

Yeah, what I thought was the first thing I thought was, It was quite interesting Is like. I wonder like how are people finding there like Max Hart and I understand the prediction and stuff like that, but I mean, if you think about it, it's kind of like, kind of like a little bit scary. right Like how? What when does it? When does like? the quest for the maximum become very dangerous To pursue some sort of thing.

[bryan_boorstein]: 24:53

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 24:55

Just because like, kind of like jumping back to what I was saying. Like Following my ship to a T. And that includes my cardiosession, and it beats me into the ground each week. But like part of the goal is like, Hey, try and spike. you know the heart rate. Um, I feel awful. I mean, it feels absolutely absolutely awful and I'm only getting into the one seventy four, one, seventy five M. And that is me trying as hard as I can and I feel absolutely horrible. So I was

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:25

But you're

[aaron_straker]: 25:26

thought

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:26

on a stair stepper, right.

[aaron_straker]: 25:27

I'm on a salt bike.

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:30

Oh, I thought you were on a stair step

[aaron_straker]: 25:31

No,

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:31

because you mentioned

[aaron_straker]: 25:32

when

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:32

that

[aaron_straker]: 25:32

I'm

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:32

being

[aaron_straker]: 25:32

doing

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:32

your

[aaron_straker]: 25:32

like my,

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:32

preferred

[aaron_straker]: 25:33

my cardio like my hit, I'm doing almost exclusively on on the assault bike or Air Nine fan.

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:38

Gotcha

[aaron_straker]: 25:38

like whatever,

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:41

Cool. Yeah, because I was going to say like, as we get into zone five, I'm going to talk about different types of equipment that are better or worse for for each purpose.

[aaron_straker]: 25:49

Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:49

and obviously, for zone five we want something with super fast turnover, And so if you're doing a stairsteper, you're already limited by how quickly you can move,

[aaron_straker]: 25:58

Hm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 25:58

but a bike with with hand with arms that move as well, is obviously going to be the number one tool there. So with that distinction out of the way between zone two and zone five, Essentially Why zone to like? What is the benefit of zone to? what's the benefit of kind of going slow? Sustainable and just that monotonous misery. right, Um? And it comes down to our mitocondria, and so our mitocondrio function in our body controls a lot of things, specifically the ability to use fat or glucose as an energy source. and when you have mitocandria that increase in both number, function And flexibility, your body can more easily convert glucose into fats and then into a t. P. So you have a much more efficient metabolic system, and then, over the course of time as your mitogandria improve in function, flexibility and number, it will have a direct effect on the accumulation of metabolic disease as we age. Anything to add to Any of that description.

[aaron_straker]: 27:13

No, I mean

[bryan_boorstein]: 27:13

Cool.

[aaron_straker]: 27:13

it, you pretty much obviously hit the nail on the head well with the defining it, but it's just that it helps you become more efficient at things you want to be efficient at doing.

[bryan_boorstein]: 27:24

Yeah, and so it's not that zone five doesn't increase mitocondrio function, but it primarily does it within fast twitch muscle, and zone to does it more systemically and in slow twitch muscle. And when you think about we as humans, and especially as we age, we have less and less and less time spent in that explosive fast twitch state. Not that we don't want to continue to develop fast twitch muscle, which is Essentially what we do with weight lifting. Um. but zone five and weight lifting are much more similar in what the adaptations that they're going to have on your body, whereas zone two is going to be a completely different adaptation that most people that lift weights just completely ignore. So I think that's why a zone to gets such a big focus, especially in the weight lifting community these days, Um, so kind of with that definition out of the way and the why M best equipment choices for zone two, And for this one it's kind of the opposite of what you would want for zone five, because in zone two you want something that allows you to be sustainable and to remain in a relatively tight output range. Um. So for that reason, running and rowing are usually pretty poor choices for people to try to do zone Two not because inherently they're bad, but because most people are inefficient runners are inefficient rowers and therefore are going to be incapable of maintaining a five to ten beat per minute heart rate zone output level throughout the course of their forty five to ninety minute session, so using something like an elyptical or a stationary bike, are probably going to be Better tools to be able to maintain consistent output. Have you experienced any of that too? I mean, I know you and I both are poor runners, but

[aaron_straker]: 29:35

The maintaining consistent constant output is a really, really big. big part there

[bryan_boorstein]: 29:41

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 29:41

personally of really a simple way that I like to frame it in what I have found works best with myself. Is main, using a modality where you need to support your own body weight, because that inherently provide some of its own work personally. When I've tried to like the zone to the zone To like how, Describing it, How Describe it, Brian, which is you? Do you feel confident? giving like a ball park heart rate range. For let's

[bryan_boorstein]: 30:10

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 30:10

say

[bryan_boorstein]: 30:10

so that's all part of my my outline.

[aaron_straker]: 30:12

okay,

[bryan_boorstein]: 30:12

I was going to get into that.

[aaron_straker]: 30:13

I won't.

[bryan_boorstein]: 30:13

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 30:14

I won't. I won't glass over that, though I

[bryan_boorstein]: 30:16

Okay,

[aaron_straker]: 30:16

have found like using a stationary bike that is just a spin bike, not with the handles as well like like an air dine. I'm getting into that like lactatethreshold lactic build up to try and get my heart rate up where it's like a stair climber. With it, you can set the constant pace for Lyptical. Something where you are supporting your body weight is

[bryan_boorstein]: 30:37

M.

[aaron_straker]: 30:38

a little bit more sustainable because you're You're not pushing as hard to get into the target range Because they are parts of those modalities that are inherently more challenging of themselves.

[bryan_boorstein]: 30:48

Yeah, no, that's a really really good point. and so specifically about the stationary bike. This is one that I really struggle with and I didn't realize how much I struggled with that to get my heart rate high enough until I, I just sit on Kim's Peleton and do an hour of pelatoning, which I discussed on the episode may be a month ago or something, but basically what I found was that my legs were burning so bad, because my arms Aren't helping, so my legs have to essentially do all of the work for the entire body to elevate my heart rate up to the desired amount that I couldn't actually get my heart rate high enough because my legs would fatigue first, and I think from talking to other people, I think that's mostly a me problem. It's a. It's an issue of the fact that I think I just have always had really fast twitched muscle fibre dominance in my lower body specifically, and Um, Due to that, I just cle Lack date very poorly, and so for me, I've found it much more effective to do modalities for zone to where I can use both my upper body and lower body Like rowing. I'm actually quite an efficient rower. Through all those years of cross fit, I kind of, I spent like an entire year trying to learn how to row. And so it stuck with me. I'm a pretty good rower. Um, but like an air din bike at a moderate pace or rowing seem to be more effect. If for me then other modalities like I've even tried incline walking, and I jack that thing up to like a twelve or thirteen degree incline at a three point three speed and that got my heart rate high enough as well, but again my legs started burning because I wasn't able to also utilize upper body output, so I think ultimately you know, it's about finding the type of cardio equipment or source That works best for you, using the metrics that I'm going to describe below here to try and find that rate for you. So ultimately the gold standard of measuring zone two is lack date, and amazingly, I've had two people that follow Brian's program go out and buy lack date meters off Amazon. And now I feel like I need to buy a lacdatemeter because the people that are following my program are doing it before I even have one, so I think that As soon as I get to San Diego, I'm going to buy one and have it shipped out there so that I can have that data as well. You guys know I love data, but essentially when it comes to lactate from what I understand at rest, So if you just wake up in the morning and you get out of bed and you prick your finger, a healthy individual without metabolic disease, their lactate should be somewhere between point seven and one point O. at rest, and when you're doing Zone two you want it to be between one point seven and two point. Though, so it's really only double what is at rest. Um, and the problem with pushing lack date higher than two is that that apparently is the point where it becomes a runaway train. So if you say, say, your Lac date is two point two, two point three, two point four like that, and you're like, Oh, I'm really close. It's cool. I'm just barely above it. You know well then that begins to clip, So it becomes two point five than two point six and two point six seven. and that it's out of your control. It's just our. Because you're above two. it becomes this like exponential increase that becomes a runaway train of sorts. And so to specifically be sustainable, you want to be between that one point seven and two point o mill per leader. Um, I don't actually know and I'm very curious because I think I'm doing a sustainable output, but maybe Am on that runaway train like sometimes I get to forty five to sixty minutes and I'm like so thankful that my cardio is over. I wonder if I'm letting that train run away a little bit on me. Um, so I am excited to try that and get like a super super accurate. but for people that aren't going to go on Amazon and buy a lack date meter and prick their finger, because there are a number of precautions that you need to take when doing that, such as it needs to be within thirty seconds of finishing exercise, or it needs to be mid exercise And you need to have a completely clean hand, because apparently lack date settles on your skin, and you can get an error reading if you try to break your finger without cleaning it with soap and hot water, which makes that kind of a difficult proposition to be like Okay. I have thirty seconds when I finished my exercise, but I also have to clean my hands with soapy water. It's a bit challenging. so something I'll kind of have to figure out as the time comes, but using more crude metrics Of determining your zone to the most crude would probably be what they call a stressed conversation. But it's not like you can have different levels of stressed conversation And I realized this when I was talking to again, Laura from from Paragon, and she goes on these. She does fourteen ers around Colorado, these big hikes that take three or four hours, and she talks through them the entire time, but when she looks at her watch at the end it's showing her that she's in zone three And zone for the whole time, so she's able to talk through zone three and zone four, which makes that a difficult metric. If you just say a stressed conversation, so it should be a stressed conversation with no gasping and with clear enunciation of all words. So essentially the idea being that you could be on a business call or on a podcast And it's just like you let them know in the beginning like Hey, I'm going to be doing zone two while we do this podcast. But like you can still do it, you can still get all Your points across. It's just they're going to know that you're probably exercising while you're doing it so slightly above. Just like walking and talking. You know. Um, so that would be like a super crude way of assessing it, And then a slightly less crude way would be to take one eighty minus your age. So remember the age predicted max heart rate was to twenty minus your age. So now we're taking one eighty minus your age, And then what you want to do is discount that five To ten beats per minute if you are in poor cardioofascular shape, and you'll want to increase that five to ten beats per minute if you're in good cardioofvascular shape, great cardi ascular shape. So for mine, one minus my age puts me at one forty, and because I'm not in great cardioofascular shape, I generally do my zone two around a hundred and thirty five beats per minute, which is going to be forty five, even though my age is forty, and that tends to be God For me like I can, like I said, Sustain that for an hour. I am always glad when my hour is up, and I just don't know if that's because my lack date is too high, or if it's because I just fucking hate cardio and I'm just really thankful that my hour is up, so I think the lack date will shed some light on that if and when I end up getting one of those lackdatemeters Um, another kind of way of doing this is to use f t, P. and so f t, P stands for functional threshold Power And functional threshold power is defined as the hardest amount of effort you can do for an hour, and it doesn't necessarily have to be sustainable. It's just the most output that you can do for an hour. I mean, and talk about miserable like I just imagine getting on a rower or an assault bike and being like My goal is to get as the highest wantage number I can An entire hour. But because that's not reasonable for most people to do, you can use the twenty minute f t, P test, and then you discount that ten per cent. So if you say that I can maintain that my my max output for twenty minutes is two hundred and twenty watts, Say, then you would discount that and say that your zone two, or rather your f. t, P is two hundred, so f t, P is not zone to f. T. P is the hardest you can Work for an hour. in an unsustainable way. Zone two is going to be a percentage of your f. t, p. M. so we'll just continue with that example. Say your f t p is two hundred. So you did the f t P test, but you did the twenty minute version and say you got two twenty as your wantage output. You discount that ten per cent. You say your f t p is two hundred, and then for your zone to work, you would take eighty five to ninety five per cent of your f t. P. So in this Using watts, two hundred watts would be your f t. P. eighty five to ninety five per cent of that would be one seventy to a hundred and ninety watts that you essentially could sustain for that forty five to ninety minute period. Um, and that also tends to be pretty accurate. for me, I've done the twenty minute test and I was just above two hundred, so I do tend to maintain about one seventy As my watts that I can do for zone to, Um, but unfortunately a lot of machines don't have wattage. most bikes do, but most tread mills do not Jordan. Lips, and I have been communicating back and forth about this a lot because he's trying to buy a treadmill for his house that has watts on it, but only the commercial grade treadmills seem to have watts. So you're talking about like three thousand to six thousand dollars for a tread mill. Instead of you know a simple at home, one You could get for six hundred dollars or something like that. They don't seem to have watts. So there, also, If you, if you use a smart device a lot of times, they will have wattage output for any activity you're doing. So it doesn't really matter if the machine itself has the wattage output. It may be available on your smart device, like on your watch or your chest strap, or whatever. Um. But watts is a cool metric because at least in the cycling world and in the longevity world, They use the metric of watts per kilo as defining metric for a your fitness, but be your lack of fitness. Um, And so, when I first started doing zone to training a number of months ago, I could only hold just over one point five watts per kilo for my zone two. And so if I weigh ninety key, I was, I was holding one hundred and fifty, So that's actually not quite just over one point five. It's maybe more like one point seven or something like that, but from what I understand, people that are prediabetic and have you know fledgeling metabolic disease, they tend to be able to hold one point five watzperkilo So that's kind of like a bottom barrel number of output for somebody that's not in Cardio vascular shape and has poor mitocondril function. You're going to be at about one point five watts per kilo, So since then now I'm up to about a hundred and seventy watts, and I weigh just under ninety kilos, so I'm actually now up to two watts per kilo, which is significant improvement. and one of the coolest things about cardio is that you really do see these adaptations happen quite quickly, And so that's been. That's been really cool for me Motivating. But if you do have the ability to assess your fitness in terms of watts per kilo, and not just in terms of Wats or heart rate, I think that's pretty cool metric, and one that one that you'll see increase as body weight goes down to, Obviously, because it's a metric of of watsperkilo, and not just a measure of total watts. That, even if your total watts go down slightly when You lose body weight, because you're a less powerful human, you may still see your wits Perqilo go up. Not to say that you know you should go out there on a mission to lose weight, but as you go through the different stages of nutritional periodization, you may notice that your wits peril changes as well within respect to zone two. Any thoughts, dude,

[aaron_straker]: 43:43

No, I mean so much of that is all brand new to me. And as you were going through it, I was just thinking about the like. The The f. T. P. functional threshold Power was like funk, dude. That sounds absolutely horrendous. Actually,

[bryan_boorstein]: 43:57

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 43:58

Um, Monitor, and then the Watson. I think it is really cool. I was. I'd have to check. Have my cardioday in two days, but I guess it would be more relative to once we get into zone the zone Five conversation, but I'm curious to see if you know any about the wantage, kind of put their respective to anything.

[bryan_boorstein]: 44:19

I, I don't really.

[aaron_straker]: 44:22

Okay,

[bryan_boorstein]: 44:22

Um, Yeah, So so we'll get into that shortly, but I don't know anything about wantage or watsprkila. It's just it's really going to just be the maximum output that you can do, and I think that that's more with respect to total body mass and total muscle mass

[aaron_straker]: 44:38

Hm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 44:38

than it is to cardioofascular function.

[aaron_straker]: 44:41

Oh yes,

[bryan_boorstein]: 44:41

Um, Because, because you've had people like, remember, back in the day, Danny Nichols, in

[aaron_straker]: 44:46

Hm,

[bryan_boorstein]: 44:46

the Cross Fit world,

[aaron_straker]: 44:47

hm.

[bryan_boorstein]: 44:47

who was like this massive Bohemia Ope athlete who is like two, twenty, five, five nine, and just like, what is he cleaning? Four o five for reps or something stupid like that, But that dude could get the the assault bike up to. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was like double the amount of watts that I could create. I want to say it was close to like two thousand or something like that, But if I'm on an assault bike and I'm just doing like an all out twenty second, as hard as I can go, I can get that thing above a thousand Wats. It's just not sustainable.

[aaron_straker]: 45:21

Okay, So that that that kind of led me into when I was most recently doing Mardi? Only one of the pikes of the gym has like a functioning display, but this one the wantage was was functioning and I could max it out at nine, ninety nine, and then each each round like it was my goal. I like see how long I could hold on to that max output at nine ninety nine as I was doing it, And that was enough like gameoffocation to take my mind away briefly from how you know, horrendous I felt, but I was like. I'm pretty sure that was Watts, but I can't remember and that's why That's what led me to that.

[bryan_boorstein]: 45:53

Yeah, it's just like Th. they climax potentially with output And so when you see when you're like, Oh, I can create a thousand was for twenty seconds or whatever it is That just has no correlation at all to what you can do for twenty minutes or sixty minutes,

[aaron_straker]: 46:08

No, not in

[bryan_boorstein]: 46:10

Because

[aaron_straker]: 46:10

close.

[bryan_boorstein]: 46:10

one one is, One is an example of just maximal output, and one is a function of card of ascular fitness.

[aaron_straker]: 46:17

Yep,

[bryan_boorstein]: 46:18

Um. so so yeah, I already covered the watts as a funk Tion of metabolic disease, Um essoit'to wrap up zone to, Um. Essentially the cool thing that I've kind of realized in doing zone two is that it sort of is similar to how we've discussed the philosophical approach to progressive overload in regards to weight training. How, instead of forcing progressive overload, you kind of weight for your performance to tell you You need to progressive overload, and so in in respect to weight training, that would be instead of benching to twenty five for ten, and then being like okay next week, I need to do either two thirty for ten, or two twenty five for eleven. Um, you just kind of hang out at two twenty five, and then you notice over time that two twenty five is too easy. And because you notice that it's now too easy, you then have to increase the weight so that it still remains challenge Ing. And that's kind of exactly how we want to approach progressive overload with zone to training. We don't want to go into sessions and be like Well Last time I did a hundred and seventy watts. So this time I'm going to do a hundred and seventy three watts, Because if you do that, you're essentially going to risk pushing your heart rate out of its zone to range, which is where all that mitocondrial function flexibility and adaptation occurs. Not that zone three and zone four don't have their own benefits as well, and that we should completely ignore those zones. But when you're trying to specifically train mitocondria function within the spectrum of zone to training, you want to keep your heart rate constant, and so within the notion of keeping heart rate consistent, then you can increase Wats, as you can still maintain a lower heart rate over time. So when you're doing a hundred and seventy wads, and you say who That was really easy, I wonder what my heart rate was and you're like, Oh, my heart rate was only one thirty today and it's supposed to be one thirty. five. Well, next time, maybe you tried to do more watts. As a result, trying to get your heart rate higher. So it kind of works as like a chicken in the egg thing that way, but that's really all I have on Zone to anything to add there before we move on.

[aaron_straker]: 48:44

No, I guess like the. It's just to wrap that That went up for anyone who's potentially not potentially having a hard time grasping it a little bit. The heart rate is the goal right, so so pushing yourself to achieve a higher output that drives you outside of that essential goal is potentially a different goal, but different from the goal of the improving the mitocondrial function There. So the heart rate is the actual goal of the activity

[bryan_boorstein]: 49:15

Yeah, lack, date would be the goal, but heart rate as a proxy for Lac date.

[aaron_straker]: 49:18

As a proxenus. Thank you.

[bryan_boorstein]: 49:19

Yeah, so zone five is like, as we've kind of discussed here and there throughout this whole episode, a maximal output and it builds mitocondrial function as well, but specific to fast twitch muscle, which as I described earlier is very similar to what weight lifting does. So both weight lifting and zone five are going to have impacts on Mio Andrea, function and fast twitch muscle. However, weight lifting does not impact our Vio to Max, and training zone Five has the largest impact on Vio to max. Um, so like zone two, it will have some impact on voto Max just through increasing mitocondria function and oxygen supply, and a T P conversion and all that stuff. But training zone Five is actually going to have a much more significant impact on Viotwomax because you're push In the capacity of what your lungs can handle in zone two. You're never at that point here. you're like right. but when you're doing zone five, that is literally the end of every interval is is you doing that, M. And so the purpose of why zone Five matters for life, I think is a little bit less relevant than zone to Um. Because a situation in daily life as you get older where you would need to be in zone five. Like, maybe a like reaching example would be you're at the airport and they have one of those really long escalators, but it's broken and you have like two bags in each hand or something along those lines And you need to to climb up this broken escalator and you don't want to wait for the elevator or some something along those lines right, But it's basically a twenty to sixty second card of ascular task with a high output level in daily life, And like, there just aren't very many examples of that like throughout daily life. If you're not true In to get into zone five, you don't often get into zone five. Um, so I think it's applicability to daily life is a bit lower. But because Vio to Max has the highest correlation to longevity of any variable, Um, it becomes relevant in that way, so when you look at the mortality risk, If you're in the top two point five percent of Vo two max, which let's be sucking real, I'm never going Get there. but if you're in the top two point five percent of vot Max, you have a five times less chance of dying from all cause mortality than somebody in the bottom twenty five per cent. And to compare that to weight lifting, if you're in the top two point five percent of muscle mass or strength, that gives you a three to one chance of not dying from all cause mortality compared to the bottom twenty five percent. Um, so as long as you're like in that top twenty five percent, like I was referencing, top two point five per cent. But if you're in the top twenty five percent of both strength muscle mass and vio to max, that's going to give you a ton of advantage. Long, turn over somebody that's not in the top twenty five percent on both of those, and those are the two highest coralits against all cause mortality of anything out there. So that's pretty cool. Um, as the other thing, I was na, say okay. So injury risk With zone five is important to, and that is specific to me, because the last two times I've tried to do zone Five running, I tore my planet Fatha in June, and then I popped my hamstring ten days ago, both times running, both times sprinting. Um, so I don't believe that zone five is inherently risky on its own. I think it's the fact that I was implementing that way Running. I do want to throw out some caution that zone five can be risky if you're not, if you don't work out like in some capacity, like if you don't push your heart rate, Like if you were a couch potato and somebody was like, Dude, you got to do some zone five and you pop up off the couch and get yourself onto an air dite and push your heart rate to one eighty or whatever that is like. That's probably going to have some risk associated with it, but if you're an athlete you lift weights. You Generally do some form of cardio. You should be able to get yourself into zone five in a a safer type of equipment, then running with with relatively little risk. Um, Clearly, I'm not a doctor, so please check with your doctor if you are worried about Zone Five training in your heart. Um, as far as equipment selection for zone five, we want two things. One, we want one that you're either inefficient at, so rowing and running Would potentially be better choices for his own five, because people are inefficient at them, which allows your heart rate to spike very quickly. However, you also want something with really fast turnover because if you're going to be doing sprints, the rower is kind of a tough one to do sprints on because you have half of your time is spent on what's called the slide stroke, which is the descent and there's no output occurring as you're descending that slide stroke, So you're only getting half of the time that you're actually on the rower is Time where you're creating output. so therefore I think running is a better choice than rowing, but definitely more risky for injury. And I just think that using the stair stepper or using the air Din bike, air bike of some sort with arms that move is just going to allow you to create the most output with the least risk. What do you think?

[aaron_straker]: 55:10

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. The one thought I had in my mind is if you do want to do running, sprinting hill, sprinting may be a little bit safer

[bryan_boorstein]: 55:19

Yes?

[aaron_straker]: 55:20

of a form.

[bryan_boorstein]: 55:21

yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 55:21

Um. And then yeah, to pick you back on what you said two or three weeks ago, I tried to do my my cardiosession, which is my hit session where I'm like peeking into zone five on the rower, and I couldn't get into that range and I was, I promise you, I was literally going as hard as I coul,

[bryan_boorstein]: 55:40

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 55:41

And I just couldn't get

[bryan_boorstein]: 55:41

yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 55:41

there like there's just too much down

[bryan_boorstein]: 55:43

interesting,

[aaron_straker]: 55:43

time between each of the rowing strokes. Is it called

[bryan_boorstein]: 55:47

Okes,

[aaron_straker]: 55:47

strokes?

[bryan_boorstein]: 55:47

yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 55:47

Okay, Yeah, so I just the assault like the air din, the fan one. It's constant movement right, whatever

[bryan_boorstein]: 55:55

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 55:55

leg in arm is is technically not working. but even though, since you can push and pull the kind of always working,

[bryan_boorstein]: 56:02

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 56:02

you get one leg that technically isn't working at each kind of compression.

[bryan_boorstein]: 56:07

Interval, yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 56:08

Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 56:08

but you have three quarters of well, more or less, three quarters of your body working at the same time,

[aaron_straker]: 56:12

More or less.

[bryan_boorstein]: 56:13

and

[aaron_straker]: 56:13

Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 56:13

the turnover speed is so fast, so like you can be doing a hundred and twenty strokes a minute. So like, even if you have a three quarters of your body not working at one point, it's only for a quarter of a second or a half a second that it's not working.

[aaron_straker]: 56:26

Exactly. yeah.

[bryan_boorstein]: 56:27

Um,

[aaron_straker]: 56:27

definitely my favorite.

[bryan_boorstein]: 56:28

Yeah, so I think Airbice is probably the best one too, and I'm actually torn right now because I'm going to buy a piece of cardio equipment to do my my stuff on. And like I really enjoy rowing. Um, I enjoy rowing way more than I enjoy the assault bike. I find it more comfortable. I think it emulates patterns of daily life, much more like bending over and triple extension of ankles, knees and hips, Um, or at least ankles and knees, but it emulates daily life much more, whereas an assault bike like very rarely do we ever push in daily life, not to mention in that form form of setting. Um, so I'm torn on which one to get. I just think the air bice is probably going to be more applicable to both zones, Whereas the rower just not great for zone five. For me, somebody super inefficient at it. Maybe, but but yeah, we'll see. I'm gonna. I'm gonna ruminate on that while we're in San Diego. H. So about zone five like we've discussed a lot about it as regards to like maximal output in like a twenty to six Second period. But there's actually a ton of ways that you can get your heart rate into zone five. Um, for example, one extreme is what they call the Vio Two Max training temple, sort of is a sequence of four minutes on four minutes off, four minutes on four minutes off, and doing that for between four and six rounds. So if each round is four minutes on four minutes off, that's eight minutes per round. You do four rounds of that. That's thirty two minutes. If you did six rounds, that would be forty eight minutes. So you're somewhere between A half hour and forty five minutes. Um, and each four minute period is the hardest you can push for that four minute period. so essentially what that means is that by the end of that four minute period, when you go to your four minute rest, you are breathing as hard as you possibly can, and gasping for air, meaning that your heart rate is as high as your heart rate is going to go. Um, So I like, I've done this test and I can get my heart rate just as high doing This four minute test at the end of it as I can doing a twenty second all out sprint or air dine interval. It's just much more miserable to go through three minutes and forty seconds to get to that four minutes than it is to do twenty seconds to get there. However, because it's much more miserable because you're consuming a ton more oxygen in that four minute period, it will have more impact on improving your vio to max than doing a twenty second on two And it off, or whatever that protocol is that you decide to implement. So on the two extremes, you have four minutes on four minutes off, and you have twenty seconds on a number of minutes off, just different output levels for different periods of time, and then everything in between, so you could do one minute on one minute off, two minutes on two minutes off, three minutes on three minutes off. You could do one of Anders and I's favorite cardio work outs from man. Back when we first met College was an increasing r. p. E, work out, so you would do one minute at R, P, six a minute, r P, seven a minute at R, P, eight and a minute at R. P. nine, and then you would just recycle that and go back to six, seven, eight, nine, six, even, eight, nine, six, seven, eight, nine, and then on the last one, when you know you're done, you follow the nine by a ten, and then that one just puts you in a hole, and you're done. Um, And so there's tons and tons of different way S that you can go about getting your heart rate into that ninety per cent plus of its maximum amount, And so zone five becomes a little bit more malleable in equipment selection in work to rest ratio, and how you really want to go about employ? Yep,

[aaron_straker]: 1:00:26

Yeah, I mean it's really well said.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:00:28

Cool. cool. Well, Add that's all I have on Zone five, so I think now that actually the last thing would be. It's the one before we before we move on. The last thing to say is that it does tend to have more of cross over effect on leg training. So depending on specifically, depending on the modality you choose, like, if you were to run sprints, that's going to have a huge impact on your leg training, because running is impact itself. Whereas, if you're doing an assault, bye or row or probab, Has less impact, but just by the nature of pushing as hard as you can in something that involves your legs, is going to have some sort of impact on your leg training. And so that wraps up my, my deep dive into zone five and kind of pushes me into the final piece of this segment, this episode, which is kind of how to combine programming these cardio days with hypertra Training, And so, when you look at the way that I'm implementing this in Brian's program right now, Um, I have a nine day micro cycle, and in that nine day micro cycle there are five weight lifting days, and then for non weight lifting days, Um, the way I actually wrote it out was to put each cardiosession on a rest day, because when I write In the app, it just kind o. It's not as streamlined or as easy to write it in. If I were to write it in on lifting day, I would end up kind of being like a footnote at the bottom of that lifting day and I didn't want it to appear that way, so I wrote them in outside of that, but I think that in a in a perfect optimal world, what you would really want to do is leverage the upper body days as a potential option where you would double up, And obviously this depends How much time you have in your day. Like if you can do a cardiosession and a weight training session in the same day, and I'm sure many people cannot, But what I've found to be working best for me is to throw one of my cardiosessions on an upper body day. Try to follow that with a rest day, and then have the leg day next, so that you're essentially two days away, like forty eight hours apart from when you did your cardio to your leg day. Um, and then, so I mean, there's a number of ways that you can organize that. I think, if you were to follow it exactly as I wrote it, which is essentially upper body zone Two, then lower body that, that's also not the end of the world. Like if you're doing zone two session, that's going to have significantly less impact on your fast twitched muscle fiber and your legs, And you have full twenty four hours between that session and then Your lower body session. I personally haven't noticed any deleterious effects from that. I do find myself being much more cautious about where I place zone five sessions. and so I think that placing those in close proximity before a leg day is for sure a poor idea. I think doing it in relatively close proximity after a leg day, probably not quite as big A deal, especially if you have a meal in between and then, depending on the modality that you use, you may just find it a little more difficult to get going in the beginning of the work, because your legs kind of have that dead leg feeling where you're just not producing a ton of force with them. But once you kind of warm up and clear some of that lackdate in there, I've found that to be okay as well, but ultimately I think what this really boils down to is what Period of nutritional periodization you're in Because if you are in a deficit, then you have to be much more conscious of where you place these cardio days, or even if you're going to do cardio at all, Um, whereas, when you're in a surplus or maintenance plus whatever you want to call it, you just have more resources to to recover, and therefore I think the impact to the negative impact of The cardiodays is just. it's just mitigated a little bit.

[aaron_straker]: 1:05:02

Yeah. You really hit the nail on the head there at the end with the with the recovery capacity. One note that I wanted to add on the zone five is if you are utilizing like the air din sprints or something like that, I have seen it where it's actually. There's no really good way to quantify it, but added as additional quad volume because it is like training the quads that higher reps you will produce it Narlyquadpump, Um, doing

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:05:35

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 1:05:35

interval sprints on there, so taking that into consideration, if you are going to have that zone five day away further enough from from from a quad training session, and it will provide you a little bit of like Matabalite, kind of stimuli

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:05:49

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 1:05:50

that you could potentially replace from a secondary day Would have a high reps of leg extensions or something like that. You would get a very similar effect.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:01

Yeah, especially if you're doing the short intervals like the twenty to thirty second all outbursts.

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:05

Yes,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:05

you know that emulate more like a weight training set. Whereas, if you're doing like a four and four off, like, you may still accumulate a ton of metabolites and your legs still burn. but it's like

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:15

Different,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:16

it's like doing you know, a four hundred web set of leg extensions or something You do want of those?

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:24

No, Oh, my god, no,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:26

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:26

no, yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:27

cool. Well, that's really all I got Man. Next week I will be in San Diego, so we'll have our new time recording the podcast. But other than that, everything should continue week to week. we should have episodes coming out.

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:40

Yep, I am very much looking forward to Brian in San Diego, because you will get in eight a M. Aron, and not a ten pm Aron, And there is

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:49

Yeah,

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:49

a couple times in this episode I like trying to hold my yawns in, but like I am

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:53

Oh,

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:53

tired, so I will be

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:55

it's

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:55

very.

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:56

all good. No one's watching your face. We're

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:57

Yeah,

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:06:57

cool.

[aaron_straker]: 1:06:58

I'll be very excited to have my cup of coffee ready to go at eight a M. doing this so

[bryan_boorstein]: 1:07:02

Nice. I dig that, All right, guys. we'll catch you all next week.

[aaron_straker]: 1:07:06

As always, thank you for listening. Talk to guys next week.