Eat Train Prosper

Milo Wolf: Range of Motion for Hypertrophy | ETP#83

August 30, 2022 Aaron Straker | Bryan Boorstein
Eat Train Prosper
Milo Wolf: Range of Motion for Hypertrophy | ETP#83
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

This week on the podcast we have Milo Wolf. Milos is currently in the process of completing his PhD in Range of Motion for Hypertrophy. This is a very hot topic right now in the lifting world and what an opportunity we have to talk with someone so well versed in the specifics of the current literature around this. Listen up if you’re looking to improve optimality in your quest for gains.

Thanks for listening


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[aaron_straker]:

yeah what's up guys happy tuesday welcome back to another episode of train prosper today brian and myself have m milo wolf on the podcast milo is pursuing ph d in if i'm rect range of motion specifically for hypertrophy so this is going to be a fantastic conversation for people like brian and myself and the listeners who

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

enjoy these types of conversations as well as there many kind of circulating questions that brian and i often talk about as we wish we had someone that we could ask this to these questions that had a more in depth kind of foot in the door

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

unde standing up and is actually researching this stuff and we are very fortunate that milan took the time to join us today mile can you give yourself a brief introduction to the listeners please

[milo_wolf]:

so first of all thank you for the inflection air that was very nice

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

so my name is milo i'm doing my phan sport science on range of motion muscle hipertfiand strength so looking at whether range of emotion plays a role and how much muscle you gain how much strength you gain why the report or range emotion is better for ingremotions better that sort of thing i'm currently a coach for strong by science and also from my own personal company wolf coaching i've been coaching people for around four years and in addition to that i've been lifting myself for around eight years now so i have some personal personal interest in the resources all

[aaron_straker]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

and you've competed in body building as well yes

[milo_wolf]:

that's

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

correct not super successfully but it was my

[bryan_boorstein]:

uh

[milo_wolf]:

first show and

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

it was definitely an

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

experience

[aaron_straker]:

ah

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah totally first one definitely i'm sure is a little bit that way cool while can you talk a little bit about your your ph d i mean i know it's on range of emotion for ipertrophy but some of the specifics of what you re studying and the questions you were looking to answer

[milo_wolf]:

yeah so honestly going into it the questions

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[milo_wolf]:

i was trying to answer aren't the same ones i'm answering now and that's the case with l pchdis where you go into it studying one thing and you can out of it

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

having studied something else so initially my plan was to mostly just run some studies comparing a part range motion to a four ange motion different sort of populations like for example in women versus men because women are generally

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

understudied

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

um m the upper body specifically because at the time of me starting only two studies on major motion in the upper body and they were conflicting so one study was showing that bigger range emotion was better for perch and the other one as showing the opposite um so initially i was to plan but then eventually as i actually read lifter on range emotion muscle length isometrics different muscle lengths the plan of change from more experimental design so just having studies comparing adaptations following different train portals to taking a more mixed methods approach so now i'm doing methanasis which is pretty much all written up now just waiting to publish it on range of motion again comparing partial forage emotion with a bunch of different sub analysis so for example comparing a partin motion at short most lengths versus lomostlenghs

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

to four ange emotion frepertree um quite a variety of sumnalcies also stuff like does specificiity apply to range of motion so for example do you need to train the range of motion you want to get better at

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

is there not a bigger thing actually so lots of questions that and those are those questions that a lot of people are interested in but unless you're doing anything alsi it's hard to answer with a single study then besides the study i am doing intervention study having people train the calves the calves are nice to train because not many people train them so they're relatively untrained use bigger effects and so forth you can actually recruit people who are training in general and because most training doesn't really train the calves that well don't have to worry about there being some sort of cross contamination for him say or squatting it's not gonna go the cats a ton usually

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

so there's one training study where i'm looking at partial ingeromotion vers for ngermotion and seeing whether one results in more muscle growth or strength games and finally there were two more studies that are already done now that's an interview study were interviewed strength and physique sport athletes and coaches on their practices with regards to range of motion their perception around range of motion muscle links for example why they do what they do how they do it just getting an idea of how it is in the sort of competitive arena i guess and then

[bryan_boorstein]:

uh

[milo_wolf]:

finally the last study was

[bryan_boorstein]:

okay

[milo_wolf]:

a survey study where we asked a bunch of but nearly hundred in fact there that was just general jim goes right so people use a gym as long as they're training for either must strength they took part and we asked them again roughly the same questions but it was to get an idea of what more general population style people were thinking of range of motion and what practices at large were like

[bryan_boorstein]:

i'm sure i could guess how the general population feels about it but what was he what was the idea or the information you gathered from pulling the coaches on it

[milo_wolf]:

putting the coaches on it so i think with my pad and my sample you really have t keep in mind the people i have access to it participants they're a lot

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

more say than your average you know for example my survey i got researches to share the save which means that people are more likely to be ineligible about scientific evidence over all and they're goin to reply

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

way from leading average person same with the coaches and the athletes i got some power lifting coaches i got some boiling coaches and athletes i got some cross fit coaches um generally people were pretty clue in with range of motion for aportrophy with power lifting people generally thought that the specificity was important so

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

i think people were pretty sort of on the spot with their answers

[bryan_boorstein]:

very cool aron any follow ups on that

[aaron_straker]:

i did have a follow up and i'm not sure how much you could actually speak to this because if i if i heard you correctly the study is not out yet but the study on the calf training and

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

some of the information or that you shared that being because the caps are let's say relatively untrained because most people don't train them you said it was was it was what you said it was easier to measure the effect size was that what you said

[milo_wolf]:

so the effects are generally larger which might make it more easy to detect differences and outcomes between two protocols that roughly the same thing but the difference between protocol a larger because the absolute absolute effects are larger

[aaron_straker]:

very very interesting

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

i will be very interested to see the outcome of that because i know there's conversations that we've had within circles with people who basically saying that training your calf is a is a move

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

and they're not going to respond at all and i feel

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

like that is kind of commonly shared information whether it's accurate or not so i'm interested in seeing the results of that for sure

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep i actually milowihave a buddy you may have heard from dave money he has a podcast as well but he has for at least two years maybe even longer has only been training one of his calves and the other one

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

and this is after you now sixteen years of training experience where he was training both caves equally but in the last two years or so of him doing this he has noticed absolutely no difference no loss of muscle no gain of muscle whether training a calf or not training a calf so so that's his end of one

[milo_wolf]:

that's pretty shocking first of all i'm surprised someone would even go that far to prove

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

the concept let's say

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

like i wouldn't do that

[bryan_boorstein]:

uh

[milo_wolf]:

yeah that's

[bryan_boorstein]:

h

[milo_wolf]:

prety surprising

[bryan_boorstein]:

my

[milo_wolf]:

to expect him to lose some muscle on that non trained limb

[bryan_boorstein]:

well anyway real quick so before we jump into a bunch more about range of motion i'm intrigued about your time under dr steele because from what i understand and he is a one of the primary researchers looking at failure training and specifically the benefits of failure training would you say that that's accurate

[milo_wolf]:

yeah roughly speaking like he's definitely done a lot on failure in general we'll get into it but doctor steele is not like most sport science resachras in a good way but also in a way that's hard to understand for people outside the field his interpretation is very much based on sort of what's the smallest effect size that you care about right let's assume for argument's sake one training protocol how did you gain smallest amount possible like barely measurable more muscle would that be a big enough difference rat to care about or not right and so what he sees and he's very included on research methods what he sees all the time i think is very small differences and outcomes with certain training variables like for example you see training failure is is not training you're not really a big difference

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

and so for certain variables i think it can be of the mind that because the difference is so small or even uncertain because right in sport science we on't have a time of study we don't hvetaton of data and so even if there is some data we can't be certain that all there's a difference and even if there's a difference oftentimes it's very small because compared to bigger bigger picture of airiables like training consistency over the months and years certain stuff just doesn't matter a whole lot you know like for example i'm sure in this podcast about range motion range motion

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

is consequential lab for sure has an impact but i wouldn't say it has like a huge impact that's going a revolutionalize your training you know i think you can be a bit skeptical of differences and training effects from one protocol where the other and so it can be seen as like a very sort of bear bones guy for a training approach goes like mostly just you

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

know single sets relative frequency s simple approach you know

[bryan_boorstein]:

because there's just might not be that much of a difference between doing more at two r r than like you know one or two sets all out type

[milo_wolf]:

correct

[bryan_boorstein]:

thing

[milo_wolf]:

absolutely

[bryan_boorstein]:

and so how has has this had an influence on the way that you train or what general is kind of your training philosophy around failure

[milo_wolf]:

yeah so to be clear studying under him as definitely changed a lot of things about how i view sport science studies everything basically with my own training for long me for the past five years maybe for the most part it's been about optimizing outcomes about sort of if there is any game to be had even if it's a small game i'd rather be on that side so it's sort of putting my chips where i stand to gain something so for example i don't know doing three sets might be better than doing two sets i'm gon to three sets just in the off chance that it might be better where with later steel for example he might view it more so as especially when speaking publicly as minimizing the chance that you're doing something that isn't doing anything

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

he wants the stuff he does to be really evidence based and actually pretty certain to do something you know whereas with me i was okay with taking the chance of this might not too much but on the off chance that it does i may as well do it basically looking for small effects where possible so with

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

me it hasn't really changed a whole lot and that's just because for him for example nowadays he's extremely busy like he's an associate professor now he's got

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

a family my life and so forth he's got a million different project he's working on because he's and as i said earlier very good at research methods so everyone wants

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[milo_wolf]:

him to do stats to do this to do that and so we have different properties and everything and it just means for me you know i'm competing body building pelly serious about training where he's training a few times a week and you know that's fine different strokes differnt people

[bryan_boorstein]:

h do you tend to work across a mesocycle from minimum effective volume to maximum recover of all volume or do you kind of find that maximum adaptive volume and hang out there as long as you can

[milo_wolf]:

sure so i don't follow quite as drastic an approach as like

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

from v say five cents a week to say m r v round twenty sets a week but i will typically after de load a bit reduced volume like slightly reduced

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

simply because during a de load you become more sensitive to volume again and if you were to throw yourself back into regular volumes you might get quite sore and that might overall not be an ideal thing um and before de load if i have a plan anyways it might make sense for me to train slightly harder we push closer to failure if there is some stimulus to be had there because ultimately i'll be recovering from take anyways in the span of a week

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[milo_wolf]:

that being the deal week

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[milo_wolf]:

so that's what i ually do

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah yeah i almost do it the exact same way as well and i'm sure aaron you know you also use intro weeks and you would push a little harder before i de load as well yeah

[aaron_straker]:

yeah and

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

i mean that's something that we've talked

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

about my life will generally de load for me because of the variables but yeah i will take advantage of that knowing that i have something like next week where there's not going to be a gym round or something

[bryan_boorstein]:

cool cool any other questions on his ph d or training to failure or anything

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

like that

[aaron_straker]:

i did and it was related to the the door steele comments would you say milo that a lot of the information coming out right in a lot of the things people speaking about that it's really very helpful and important to take the individual into consideration as someone who like the three of us who already have achieved you know a greater than average physique we are trying to squeeze every last ounce out of anything out there like i will gladly and happily spend the extra time on that extra set for the

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

off chance that it is going to give me that extra one percent because i've already soaked up a large majority of any type of game i will ever make so under anding like what the population or who the specific person is because if it's your you know general let's call a gym population person who's just trying to

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

make games and they still have margins or very large for that do you would you say that a lot of the information i definitely more taylor towards that more common individual in mind

[milo_wolf]:

yeah absolutely i think very few people looking at it on a population level even lift weights so you're looking to optimize things and really just sort of boil it down to what you're pretty sudden work leave out a lot of stuff we might do in to the most things that really isn't necessary to provide a decent stimulus to a beginner intermediate lifter someone trading say twice a week three times a week and even that consistently often do away with a lot of the more optima quote training approaches and that's that's fine and i think

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

that's a good pouch to take with average joe trying to make some gains as far as you have lifting for example

[aaron_straker]:

great thank you

[bryan_boorstein]:

and then i'll just add one quick little kind of side question on top of that you have been training eight years i've been training twenty five years arens around twenty or slightly under right now i believe um m how do you see volume from the point where you are now up to ten or fifteen years from where you are now do you see that volume increasing over time decreasing over time or you know what are your thoughts on that

[milo_wolf]:

absolutely so i think that's much more so than any physiological differences for me now to intend fifteen years it's going to be much more lifestyle based so if for reason like other steel i have a busier schedule it might just be that my volume over all needs to come down and that might in turn be that i need to mean that i need to maximalize my time efficiency so start doing stuff like cess to failure may be some antagon parent super sets anything that really maximize time efficiency at that point but physiologically i think past a certain point in training age unes your gettin into an extreme like for example let's say you're train age of seventy years and you're not ninety years old at some point ourinvolumis gonna hav to change but outside

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

of those extremes i think

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

past a few years of lifting experience you're volume requirements or optima volume amount probably won't change a ton unless your life circumstance s change a tone whether that's like a medical condition or like really high life stress or really bad sleep will have you i think generally they're petty stable after s

[bryan_boorstein]:

interesting yeah i've actually found mind going down and i think that a lot of that has to do with just being able to be better at at targeting the area that i want to target more effectively getting more out of you know each rap each set and each movement overall um so i was just curious where where you stand on that it's something

[milo_wolf]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

that i honestly probably didn't even realize until i was at nineteen years of training that i was able to actually lower my volume and get more out of it so i was more along the lines of kind of your way of thinking until i reached a point where that happened and then i surprised myself and now i do a lot less than i did you know six years ago

[milo_wolf]:

that makes sense i mean as a litter matures i think you learn stuff you know so at this point in

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

your career might be that you can get away with doing two or three sets instead of four or five and get similar

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

stimulus out of it because i mean butaplying better technique more effort and so forth and just make it a more productive set over all

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep cool air and anything else

[aaron_straker]:

no the only thing i always do that i say

[bryan_boorstein]:

you

[aaron_straker]:

no

[bryan_boorstein]:

always

[aaron_straker]:

and then

[bryan_boorstein]:

do

[aaron_straker]:

i

[bryan_boorstein]:

that

[aaron_straker]:

start talking i one caveat that i think does

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[aaron_straker]:

apply to that is the rise of technology and how easy it is to film your sets stuff because you know we've talked about this for there is a stark contrast to how a set feels you know from a perception

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

standpoint and then you watch the video and you're like those raps didn't slow down but it felt like heavy as hell and i definitely had you know more reps left in the tank like i might have

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

said to myself that's an r i r two racket i watched the video and i like that's probably a four you know in all reality so that could play

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

and it's an often

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

unthought of or not as frequently thought of aspect of it

[bryan_boorstein]:

cool

[aaron_straker]:

ye

[milo_wolf]:

yeah i agree home with that

[bryan_boorstein]:

cool all right well let's shift gears here and actually talk about some range of motion stuff so one of the things that i for the last year or so have thought was quite important and now that i've talked no talked to zac and and josh from data driven strength and listen to you talk and i had kind of side chat with greg knuckles about this i was very concerned about whether it was overloading the length and position that was most important or whether it was this idea of just training at long muscle lengths and so our listeners will be familiar with this but just to provide them an example like you can look at a seat leg curl machine in hip flexion where you're kind of leaning forward and that will train your ham strings at a long muscle length but that doesn't necessarily mean that that movement is hardest at that str he lengthened position it still could be hardest at the short position so what do you think about those two different things and doesn't matter at all

[milo_wolf]:

yeah so i think that distinction is good to draw for a few reasons if you were to assume that right so there's the whole argument it's kind of a tangent but it does relate to range emotional promise so

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

think about the strength curve and resistance curve argument where people want to match them generally

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

that for example when it's been tested directly in the evidence has been two studies now it generally doesn't seem to confer any greater hypertrophy so yeah it doesn't seem as though at one extreme you need to be close to failure the muscle length get a benefit out of it right because otherwise if you were matching your strength cove and resistance curve perfectly get a much greater stimulus

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

than you would if you didn't right but that doesn't seem to play

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

out so we can discount right away the fact that it needs to be like a very clear at this point we need to fail so you don't need to have an ex is where you necessarily fail at the length and position that's not probably not definitely unnecessary and probably not super beneficial either it might be slightly beneficial but it's not a requirement by any means and i wouldn't go way out of my way to find the exercise that doesn't at now i think the reason that's the case and i could be very wrong what this is like this is me trying to find a mechanism for something we see happening in the research it might be a different mechanism entirely so in the research you see that including long muscle lengths is beneficial for ypertrophy as you've discussed the podcast before i think the reason for that and also the reason why it not being a lengthened overload movement isn't that big of a deal because as muscle length increases typically passive tension also increases because tension is

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

a huge deal for stimulating hyportropy on the molecular level that might be enough by itself to provide that benefit so i think provided you're getting pretty long muscle lengths you're fine and provided the failure point isn't at super shortened positions m

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

and i think given the evidence now on the sort of more global level so like global i mean the evidence looking at during a portion neromotion at long muscle lengths short muscle lengths not like the you know there's more theoretical or mechanistic arguments like oh you want to have four in motion so you can to every area of that muscle and so forth from a more global or more sort of zoomed out approach we look at the studies themselves just looking at the actual outcomes like approach few i would say by saying most of your training i'm not saying like ninety five per cent what i'm saying sixty seventy percent or something towards being including long must lengths and be providing a good deal of tension there not necessarily failing at

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

like the most lengthen position but ideally failing somewhere close to that like maybe a squad for example a squad typically fail right ou it's pretty link still and so that's in my view a pretty god exercise for the quads and the lutes for example

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep aron anythin you gonna jump in on real quick

[aaron_straker]:

no and i actually mean

[bryan_boorstein]:

cool

[aaron_straker]:

no this time

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah so so essentially the idea being that we want some tension at that length and position so it would be pretty bad if we had that seated leg girl set up where it was super short overloaded and you get to the length position at the top and you just kind of feel like nothing's happening your legs are just like in a passive stretch with not underload um but alternatively like so we say we have one of these prime machines or the strive machines where you change the resistance curve right would your default then be to set it where it's hardest at that length and position or would it be more in the mid range so that we do have that kind of more even tension curve throughout

[milo_wolf]:

yeah so honestly based on the evidence i would put it at a linkin position as i said earlier we have those two studies looking at hypertrophy following sort of matching the strength curve resistance curve and generally for a muscle group that you see that its strength curve its strongest around like resting length or moderate

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

length right so

[bryan_boorstein]:

yes

[milo_wolf]:

with your argument right you would set it up so that it's hardest or heaviest in the mid range but that doesn't seem to matching those calves that strength resistance cave doesn't seem to lead to greater hypertrophy outcomes whereas getting plenty of tension in the length and position does seem two in general when you're comparing a body of evidence of two studies to a body of evidence of purely hypertrophy seven and that's just actually comparing four ange motion portirneremotion than there's five more studies comparing portia ngeremotions at different muscle lengths i perch for

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

you there's the icemeticream which cured this three secs and then there's some mechanistic stuff like old bird studies on hypertrophy were there stretching out the wings

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep

[milo_wolf]:

for example and more recently i want to say like a month ago or two months ago now there was a study where they had people stretch out their caves for an our day using orthoutic device that was a moderate intensity stretch and long short by stretching their calves were now or day using that device i believe six weeks i was actually riting about this earlier for an s p s article for by science they saw pre substantial hypertrophy and so in general

[bryan_boorstein]:

wow

[milo_wolf]:

there seems to be something quite compelling about long muscleings for a proc and so in comparing a body evidence of two studies for the matching the strength curve there is scftoabylook sure that's quite quite compelling overall and much more

[bryan_boorstein]:

h m

[milo_wolf]:

power in terms of how much day that there is i would definitely go towards overloading that link in position

[bryan_boorstein]:

very cool so one of the things that you guys talked a lot about on the data driven strength podcast was kind of the different ways that you can accentuate the length and position and we went over kind of there were a couple of different ideas thrown out there was this idea of basically taking a movement to its failure of its short position so you the example i like to think about as a cable row because there's just so many partials that can be had after you can't get a full range of motion anymore and so that would be like okay you're doing instead of eight to ten you fail you cannot get your elbows past your back any more and then you just kind of let that range of emotion gradually fall off and you know it in theory you could probably get eight to twelve additional partial reps even after you fail at the short position um and then alternatively you have this on the other extreme you have this idea of what if i just load up my cable rose so heavy that i can't even get a single full rep or maybe i get one or two or something like that and then that range of emotion gradually drops off and so i've been experimenting a lot with these different ideas in my training and then also the reverse drop that i know what what do you actually call the reverse drops that you have different name for it right

[milo_wolf]:

yeah so i call it

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

stretched super set and that's just because

[bryan_boorstein]:

okay

[milo_wolf]:

in my experience i can't actually add weight and do was afterwards like it's just like have to

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[milo_wolf]:

use the same weight and i can get like two or three raps so that way

[bryan_boorstein]:

okay so the reason that in the way i implement the reverse drop set and it might be slightly different but i only take the short movement to about two or three r i r so that i don't actually completely fail short and then i'm able to add twenty per cent load and do partials so that would kind of be like a middle ground between failing short and then just letting range of motion fall off versus just choosing a really heavy as weight where you can't even get more than a report and then letting range of motion fall off so across my three sets that i've been doing on movements like that that are very short biased i've been doing the first exercised to basically concentric failure of the short position then i would rest and the second set would be a reverse drop set so it would be shy of failure of the short position and then some length and partials heavier and then the third set would be that third example of just loading up a heavy as weight where i don't get a single full rep and just hit you eight to ten partials or something along those lines have you what do you think of that and have you done any similar experiments yourself throughout your training recently

[milo_wolf]:

absolutely i have you so i guess the question you're asking essentially is to what extent should we go beyond failure in our pursuit for lengthened reps right because like if

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

you

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

look at it this way let's say right now with a reversed upsets your essentially going quote quote past failure once and i know it's not past failure because you're stopping your first set left for range emotion set two or three of save it's just for the

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

sake of argument say it's m closer to failure right so ye have one

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

instance of going closer to failure reducing that range motion and fatiguing yourself more on principle right going closer and closer to failure and past failure past a certain point is seen as being kind of productive because it produces lot fatigue and in terms of stimulus were not sure to add a huntmore now in this case it might be different because as we said there seems to be something potentially special about long muscle lengths and so when you say looking at a set past failing the research you see it's fatiguing and not more stimulating but in

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[milo_wolf]:

this case it might be more fatiguing but also more stimulating so personally i wouldn't go as far as to have too many iterations of going past failure within that set so i wouldn't go okay right let's do a sforngemotion then let's do a set with three quarters then let's do a set with half let's do a set with one quarter because hat's gonna rally fatiguing the evidence we have on training past failure and to failure is that it's quite fatiguing and so until we have some sort of evidence to suggest it's actually not that bad and we get a lot of more stimulus by doing this technique sort of stay away from doing too many adorations of that do you think if you take the rational that long muscle lengths really important to an extreme for example you could wind up it okay so let's say a portion range of motion rap at long muscle lengths is productive right go as far as to say okay well why not just isometrics at loos lengths because then that's the ultimate portion that spectrum from full range emotion to no range emotion icemetrics or no range emotion and they're being performed at that most productive muscle length potentially i think

[bryan_boorstein]:

that's like the

[milo_wolf]:

that

[bryan_boorstein]:

calf study you just reference right like the sixty minutes of calf stretching that was a isometric stretch

[milo_wolf]:

deed exactly

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

so i guess what you're asking that would be yes or icemetriccontraction s nherently less hyportrophic than dynamic contractions because if not and if long muslin really important it might just turn out that icemetric contraction must lengths make sense um

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

m if you're wiling to take that bet you can experiment with isometric only exercises like for example of wallet but like at the astograss position

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

or even the dead hang or something like that for lots or you can

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

even like if you have a machine pull over just holding that whole position might be nice or even like a free way to pull over icometric you know um

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

but because we haven't really got a systematic comparison of isometric versus dynamic exercise for urged like i've looked around and i've actually been commissioned in the past although i've been lagging on this skimping on it by isretell to write a systematic review on comparing different contraction types so isometric versus callecentric versus ecentric versus concept with centric and so forth on strength and hypertrophy and looking at whether or not there's actually a difference but i haven't actual round to that at all because i've ben quite busy but there hasn't been any sort of systematic comparison now so there's a chance that dynamic is straight up better and you shouldn't do icometriclomas lengths in the case that emetics are fine you might actually expert with that and see how it goes you know

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm so from like a fatigue cost spectrum because that seems to kind of be where you are focusing on with that is like hey you're failing short and then you're doing this extra stuff that's going to cause more fatigue would that third example that i said you just load that cable row up really heavy and maybe you only get one full range emotion wrap or none and then let that range emotion fall off i mean in a sense i guess you're failing short and then you're continuing do these length and partials but it's got to be different mechanisticallyer or rather within the body physiologically than it is to actually take like an eight to twelve rep set to failure and letting those fall off s

[milo_wolf]:

yeah so i think it would be different if only by virtue of it being just a single rap so that's a different

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

energy calls that's

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

a different amount of

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

mental accumulation and so forth but what you do see is that typically example that was at once study if

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

you recall potentially where brad shown felt that people do i think eight by three so eight sets of three raps

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

versus i want to say four by ten and long story short they both resulted in the same hypertrophy except to group doing those eight sets of three took a lot more time and had sort of more joint complaints like connected issue

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

so what you're gaining in terms of potentially metal cumulation related recovery or fatigue in terms of energy cost and so forth you might be losing in terms of connected tissue discomfort generally

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

for example in palifting injury rates are higher than body building that can be due to a variety of factors potentially like excise selection being more narrow like loading generally being higher performing lower es but i think that forming lower raps else being equal is probably a bit more um m uncomfortable

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[milo_wolf]:

for most people's joints and so

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

that would be one downside but i think it would be a bit better that way than doing say stead of eight or twelve then sort of failing shortened bias repeating that

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

infinitely i think it would be better to do one rep for example four in motion and then failing instantly because it's really heavy i think that would be better but i'm still skeptical of that approach because of how many iterations of going past failure that involves ah

[bryan_boorstein]:

even though it is doing so to accentuate that length and position specifically so

[milo_wolf]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

it seems like you're kind of tempering your stance a little bit on on confidence with with the length and movement some one of the most interesting things that you guys talked about on the podcast was the the stimulus to fatigue of these different movements and how you kind of we're saying that basically i think zach actually may be said this was that if the stimulus is higher on the on a lengthened movement but the fatigue is also higher and the stimulus is lower on the short movements and the the fatigue is lower and the stimulus is also lower than why are we training short like what what are the reasons to train short if we're getting more stimulus and more fatigue or less stimulous and less fatigue kind of what are some of the reasons that you at this point are still including thirty to forty per of your training with short movements

[milo_wolf]:

yeah absolutely so just briefly to go back to your cable real example with the accentuating that length and position

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

i think accentuating is the right word but if you it's a sort of thin where if you really believe that long musclings are important then why not just skip that first wrap all together and just do a lengthen portion i need avoid failure

[bryan_boorstein]:

as in

[milo_wolf]:

right

[bryan_boorstein]:

don not even go to full range of motion so you're saying stop

[milo_wolf]:

at

[bryan_boorstein]:

the range of motion before before i could like i could do more but i don't

[milo_wolf]:

exactly so you don't even go past failure a all at that point if you like if you're

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

rational is really long muscle ings are productive then you can abscond

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

that failure point all together and just do that i guess but yeah so answer your

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

questions i think with long with short muscle training i would typically

[bryan_boorstein]:

okay

[milo_wolf]:

include it for a few different reasons and broadly speaking these are also the reasons brought up in the surveys and the interviews that

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

i conducted by people one is injury management so generally for example you see that two things one sometimes going to lengthened muscle lengths can be uncomfortable for people with injuries in that case too facilitate recovery and return to normal eventually eliminating those long muscle ings and training predominantly shorter muscle in productive another one would be preference some people just either doing a forage motion like nowadays let's say long muscle links thrown out to be really important some people might still train them for anger motion and include those short muscle lengths because they enjoy train for range motion that's fine i'm going to keep it purely to approach her because obviously if you're talking about

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

strength specific is important if

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

you'retalking about quality life over all you might want steal again specificity to everyday tasks um m hypertrophy so one is preference one is injury management another one might be and i'm not super sure of this it could be right could be wrong is regional hypertrophy you might see that if you exclusively use long muscle lengths like only let say only did isometrics long as possible muscle length you

[bryan_boorstein]:

right

[milo_wolf]:

might see that regional muscle hiprotuefall off now i'm skeptical of this somewhat because say you're doing long muscle length portals right hypertropy overall with those is better than four in motion or short must lengths arshals unless you're growing a ton in one area you have to grow so much in one area and in the other to get more over all hypertrophy so that's that seems recently unlikely intuitively to me you know you get so much regional hyper o one side that even thuh you're only growing that side over all you're still going more than the other groups like forage motion group and the short most length group

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

and also from my reading of the literature what happens typically is that four in motion group and the long muscle length partial group grow pretty uniformly across the muscle like you know distal sides grow fand personal sides grow fine but then with short muscle length conditions what they typically observe is that they grow pretty well at proximal sits so near the origin point but then at the insertion points they typically grow less than the four ange emotion and long muscle lengths arthur inter motion groups so

[bryan_boorstein]:

right

[milo_wolf]:

i guess potentially regional hypertrophy potentially injury management

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[milo_wolf]:

and potentially preference would be the three main ones in my my view

[bryan_boorstein]:

where do you stand on the potential benefit of metabolic stress and if that is enhanced by going short

[milo_wolf]:

i'm open to it so there's only been one study looking at range of emotion and metablicstress which was the trip extension study comparing school crushers partial raps to for as and they did see greater blood lacked levels in that study with a partial in motion group um and from what i can recall that was performed slightly you know that was performed the lengthened portion

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

so i'm open to it but there hasn't been very much evidence looking at medaplicstress directly when doing it short muscle length like long muscle ing and so forth

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

also the role of metal stress and hypertrophy seems to be somewhat secondary so i'm open to it being a mechanism in favor of short muscle lengths i think i'd rather before i look at that sort of data i'd rather look at the overall aggregate data because that's actually measurin what we care about you know we don't care about if you're likely levels go higher we care about if you got more jack or not in the end you know so

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

it's possible and i'm open to it but i would need more evidence to use that as a reason to incorporate short musings

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm i feel like the skull crusher is a kind of poor example just because it is inherently length and overloaded so when you get short it's like you're just kind of resting it's like the top of a bench press or whatever you know so it's kind of like does the bench press help you short i don't know not really interesting though very very cool aaron let you jump in man any

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

thoughts comments

[aaron_straker]:

i do have a comment just to take us back a little bit to when we were talking about the fatigue to stimulus kind of opportunity cost i should say for taking like the

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

reverse drop set example what initially came to my mind was potentially to present a plausible example here a muscle that recovers really really well where the fatigue is generally very small in general and media deltas come to mind right

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

so something like that where an almost any movement for the medial delts is going to be largely shortened and we do probably ninety percent of the work that those gets is in a shortened movement or with a shortened overload so potentially something like that where we could do a lot of like reverse drop sets or intensity modifiers to stay in that

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

length and position that was like the thought that was like this could be like maybe one of a few number of muscles that has like a different plause ability because they

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

recover so well because it is a smaller muscle so obviously

[milo_wolf]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

we

[bryan_boorstein]:

and

[aaron_straker]:

wouldn't

[bryan_boorstein]:

because

[aaron_straker]:

do

[bryan_boorstein]:

there's

[aaron_straker]:

something like that for the quad or the glut because

[bryan_boorstein]:

right

[aaron_straker]:

it's so big and you know centrally fatiguing but something like that otentially could have a practicality

[milo_wolf]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

and because on like a dumbbell lateral rays there's literally zero tension at the length and position like your arms are just hanging neutral um so obviously you can use cables and stuff but that's a great example so like milo in in example or other similar movements where there is no tension at all at the length and position what

[aaron_straker]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

is what is kind of your solution to that how do you generally handle those in your own training or that of clients

[milo_wolf]:

yeah so actually i think i read this from you brian and i'm not hupcenture if i did and if i did i'm copying you in that school i own it

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

but generally to determine what muscle group i like to use any sort of link and emphasis technique on would simply perform vers opisite as you call it or like a lengthen super set and see how many more webs i can get for the exercise i can get a good number of raps it's usually a good sign that that most group benefit from such technique for example with a school crusher as you mentioned earlier

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

i've tried it on that i get like if i did twelve wraps on my forage emotion set i'll get like one or two extra max you know whereas with a lot of rays i might get

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

like an extra ten now so i think that's usually good approach and that typically means that muscle groups like chest triceps quads and hamstrings don't respond super well to enhancing that latin position even more it's already being plenty enhanced you don't eed to worry about doing length and super sets reversed sets or anything becauseyou're gettin plenty

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

attention already but for most groups like biceps oftentimes or like side delt or back or caves to an extent to you might find up with those do benefit from doing that reverse to upset and getting more emphasis on that linking position that otherwise wouldn't

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

i do think when you're doing reverse upsets or linking super sets i would almost always recommend staying pretty shy of failure on that first set so never going to failure and failure again unless you really eed maximlize time efficiency because then you know if your constraint isn't recovery it's time you can just train balls to the walls and maxim stimulus and that's your main concern but if recovery is a concern then i would always keep like some between one and four reps in a tank on the first set and then usually also one to four as in a tank on the partial range of motion lengthened by a set just because the same rational with failure having a bad time fatigue ratio should also apply to this partial set you know it's no fun exception so i'd keep wonderful some resolve on both those sets

[bryan_boorstein]:

on

[aaron_straker]:

no that was perfect for me

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep

[aaron_straker]:

exactly what i was looking

[bryan_boorstein]:

no

[aaron_straker]:

for

[bryan_boorstein]:

of

[aaron_straker]:

thank

[bryan_boorstein]:

that

[aaron_straker]:

you

[milo_wolf]:

did i call you

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah so that was a post that i made that was using partials to help you determine like whether where the movement is overloaded so yeah i appreciate the shout out that's awesome um i was going to say something else on that and now my mind just went blank aron helped me out here jump in with something

[aaron_straker]:

i just been

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

i was using all of my mental capacity to take the conversation back to that example that i had so i'm used up

[bryan_boorstein]:

all right a

[milo_wolf]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

cool cool cool um so okay so milo

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

do you have you done any of this stuff that is just straight up going as heavy as you can so you can't even get a full rep on these short movements and just doing these lengthened set lengthened reps and sets versus like for example i saw you the other day post about your your chest supported rose and you talked about how you really want to get that big stretch over the top and then you really like to come back and contracted the backside um and you were like you know but if you can't get the big contraction at the backside you at least want to stretch on the front side which like i fully agree with um but like have you taken the movement like that and just loaded it super heavy and done that like bottom know three quarters of range of motion or whatever

[milo_wolf]:

yeah so that's actually where some of the constraints

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

of partial raps jump in so myself for example why ask people okay what range emotion do you use and why don't you use more or less for interomotion and then gave a list of common reasons and they can add their own reasons and so forth one of the reasons i don't do that is because for example for machines oftentimes there just wouldn't really be enough weight on the stack to do that some machines

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

like the machine rose oftentimes you know it's not that heavy and so you can't really do that m to be frank i haven't played around with it just because it's a bit too exotic from you still like it's too out there you know like i would need to look at the isometric literature myself for example or look at i mean with portia reps i would be actually be decently open to it and i guess the reverse sets for example would be an example of incorporating those heavier portals and i do that actually like i do stretch super sets were partials in that lenthind position i couldn't otherwise

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

do with the isometric stuff i haven't quite been tempted enough yet and i think maybe

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

if i look at the isometricaltr myself i'll be more tempted to do

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

it

[bryan_boorstein]:

no i wouldn't i haven't done the other symmetric stuff either i'm kind of more talking about like how you know when i'm doing i keep going back to the cable row but when i cable row full range of motion raps i'm like you know one seventy five for and that's failure like i can't get my elbows past my midline anymore but i'll throw that thing on to twenty five to thirty five something like that i have to use my gym pin to get a little extra weight on there and like i was saying i might get one or two full reps maybe maybe to your point i would do that set in the future and not get any full ps even if i could so like i would stop that range emotion just shy and just kind of maybe hang out in that middle zone a bit more but but not speaking about icometrics at all but you just haven't done the even more of that just kind of dynamic movement in the length and position

[milo_wolf]:

i haven't but it's actually something i want to try like i've been dipping my toes into it by doing those reverse dropsets linking super sets whatever on a call them

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah yeah

[milo_wolf]:

but that sort of been dipping my toes into it then my light to experiment with some partial as you mentioned and then in a few

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

weeks from now i'll be doing some isometrics only you know no more dynamic training

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah totally totally we're just going to go to the bottom of a face away cable curl and just like hold that for like a minute um no well i actually i find that very interesting how much trepidation you have with this and scientifically i think it makes a ton of sense i just find it very intriguing because i guess i jumped the gun super fast and i was really excited about this and i went like full force head in and i've truly enjoyed it and i think one of the components that i really like the most about training long muscle lengths more and not going completely short is that it actually feels subjectively less painful because you get short and you get all these metabolite builds up and the lactic acid and the muscle burns and all that stuff but when you're hanging out at long muscle lengths and just letting it stretch you out isometrically in and you know just getting a few degrees of range of motion from there it's obviously hard on your body to not want a rip and half type thing but but it's definitely not as painful as going short and so i assume that that was that something that was mentioned in some of those surveys you did with it the people as well

[milo_wolf]:

yeah so comfort and pain were two major reasons why people did a certain range emotion often they often so what you see in clinical research so shout out james steele once again headed his past on lumbar extension straength and training the rectors for back pain lorbackpain and so for example in his pet he noted that generally people experience more pain if

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

they have an injury at extreme range emotion so like the folly linkin position in a fully shorten position and so yeah people generally noted that those extremes would be a bit more pain or when they

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

avoid them for that reason and the burn can be a bit too much as well so definitely a

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm interesting maron thoughts anything dad

[aaron_straker]:

no just what i was thinking of is that i would i was thinking of a mental note to look up that research on that specifically the way you just covered that's very interesting to me

[bryan_boorstein]:

a

[milo_wolf]:

james

[bryan_boorstein]:

um

[milo_wolf]:

did a lot of research on performing lower back training

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeh

[milo_wolf]:

for

[aaron_straker]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

lower back paying specifically

[bryan_boorstein]:

what were the movements primarily being used in there i mean i'm sure i assume it wasn't like hip hinges and stuff

[milo_wolf]:

it wasn't no although actually we ran a study a few years back comparing the so i'll explain the machine they used for the training of lower back is a very specialized machine is literally basically you

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

fix all the joints in the body like the hips the knees and everything so the only motion allowed

[bryan_boorstein]:

h

[milo_wolf]:

or feasible is that of the spine because otherwise what you see oftentimes with

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

i don't know extension rows like you know the roads i was doing on the machine road where i try to extend my spine oftentimes you'll see and the reason using the machine and the cable or free weights is that it's hard to differentiate as an individual while you're doing a complex movement moving my hips it or moving my spine am

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

i bending over more where i'm actually flexing my spine itself and that's war with a treating

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

for example is while you see the people a little hip flexion as well at the same time as doing

[bryan_boorstein]:

yes

[milo_wolf]:

their spine flexion anyways so they used that machine and they also ran a study later on where they compared the strength on that machine between people who are competitive power lifters so you acually trade the squad et cetera and just regular gym goers to see okay do like the low bar squad and the heavy sort of squad under lift movements actually make your back down a stronger is it actually just comparable in the end to regular gem goers who don't do that that heavy your focus on those movements that supposedly strengthen your core and strength lower back so much you know

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm so it was just isolating spinal extension and flexion almost like you were doing like

[milo_wolf]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

a subtle cable crunch but kind of reverse why

[milo_wolf]:

correct

[bryan_boorstein]:

is

[milo_wolf]:

and i've used that

[bryan_boorstein]:

interesting

[milo_wolf]:

machine it's it gives you pumps and places you've never let the pump before

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah i could imagine i remember like from our cross fit days aaron and i both were competitive cross fitters back in the two thousand ten two thousand fifteen time frame but man flow back were we're definitely the most debilitating that you can possibly get in the middle of a workout

[milo_wolf]:

yeah they're not comfortable they make you an lie down but even when you lie down you're still uncomfortable and nothing helps

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah ah are you more likely i assume yes but are you more likely to take a movement that is short overloaded closer to failure than you are like a length and compound like an ard squat pendulum something like that m

[milo_wolf]:

that's correct although as i said earlier i would typically opt for length and overload movement in the fist place so like there's relatively few exercise in my program right now for example the failure point is clearly a shortened position if there is it's usually

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

a pretty a pretty good movement over all in terms of matching the strength cove and the resistance cove just because then

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

even if i do fail at a shorten point at least there's still some good tension in the like position to

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm so is that like leg curls leg extensions would be examples of short movements you're still doing because they have good resistance curves

[milo_wolf]:

correct in

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[milo_wolf]:

those movements also more likely to actually use link and super sets to overcome that

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

limitation like some stuff now leg extensions they're really good for a variety reasons in some ways every way but they're really good in some senses because no lower back involvement so at the end of a session when you're ready pretty act can be good they're appropriate for higher reprangers and if you want t include a void reprangers they can be helpful because they're

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

not a systemically fatiguing as a squad where you try to if you try to squat for twenty wraps you wouldn't get close to local failure and so like tents can be nice in that sense but then you can overcome some of the limitations of the exercise for example doing that reversedropset length of super so

[bryan_boorstein]:

so do you tend to find yourself looking when you're looking at the arms and the delts that naturally have a lot of these like i had a short overload movements do you find yourself opting more for like you know and over the head tris of extension and like a cable face away curl or an incline curl and maybe doing like a duel cable lateral rays behind the back type thing like using movements like this so that you get some of that tension in the length and position more

[milo_wolf]:

absolutely i think there is a bit of a trade off a sudden body parts and exercises with time so for example you mentioned that behind the back to cable lateral rays

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

for that exercise you need access to a specific piece of equipment that often will be highly used in gyms and so you know oftentimes if i don't have that okay i'll just go to pardumbells and do some laterals and then do just a partial wrap

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

the bottom you know in that that does a pretty good job

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

too it might not be quite as good in my opinion but it's less hassle sure in time we'll have you i'll just ope for a piece of equipment that's more widely available and circumvent or

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

cercummend some of the issues by doing something like a drop it

[bryan_boorstein]:

and you can definitely use a single cable and just emulate the same body position you know putting the arm behind the back and doing your lateral raise that way or whatever to so so no i fully feel you on that and i think using una all movements with cables is probably a much more respectful way operating in a commercial gym anyways

[milo_wolf]:

it is it is but then again like with the single oral option it's still pretty time effective time efficient but it's not quite as time

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

efficient

[bryan_boorstein]:

right

[milo_wolf]:

but it is definitely better option in terms of you more easily have access

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

to it and you're not that guy who uses the cable rack for forty five minutes and no one else can do anything

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep aron

[aaron_straker]:

i was just going to say there's nothing wrong with being that guy

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

i

[aaron_straker]:

first

[milo_wolf]:

feel you

[aaron_straker]:

come

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

first

[milo_wolf]:

feel

[aaron_straker]:

served

[milo_wolf]:

you

[aaron_straker]:

and

[milo_wolf]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

people can always work in they just have to get over the fear of approaching you to ask but i always say yes when they do

[milo_wolf]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

ask

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[milo_wolf]:

that is true that is true and

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

i agree fully actually

[bryan_boorstein]:

all right so the last question i have and then i think aaron potentially had a question at the end for you as well i don't know if he still wants to ask that but my last question is about all of the stuff that paul carter is putting out about how not all muscles respond to stretch meted hypertrophy i assume that there is some sort of gradient where some respond better than others this may or may not have to do with biarticula muscles i think that that probably plays some part of it but where do you stand on you know all muscles respond to stretch mediate hypertrophy or or some don't and which ones don't and maybe there's more than others you know what are you huh on the whole thing

[milo_wolf]:

sure so full transparency i've heard the claim but i've rarely heard the rational behind it so i

[bryan_boorstein]:

kay

[milo_wolf]:

might respond to it and be like yeah i know this is this is and then actually he'll rational like we wait a int makes a lot of sense

[bryan_boorstein]:

okay

[milo_wolf]:

my perspective in practice you can make that argument to some extent so for example let's say the quality right we mentioned the quality earlier you get plenty of tension at a stretch position already so you don't need to seek out more stretch media hyprotrophy so in practice

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

you know if you just hear that sentence out of context you might think oh yeah that's fair enough because you don't need to focus on that anymore um but then on a more sort of theoretical level i think muscles have different structures and so forth and that's fair enough and muscles can be single joint multi joint hamstrings versus for example i don't know solis i was gonna say caves but the gas rock in cart of um so there can be differences in those but i don't really see how that would preclude them from being susceptible to stretch media hypertrophy like fundamentally the passive tension increases as musleingth increases that's on a fibral level like an individual fiber attached to a joint will do that simply as passive structures get stretched out the analogy of the rubber band works pretty well where you know stretch out a band there's some tension to return to resting length and i don't see why different muscles different architectures crossing a different number of joints i don't see how that would change that fact i can see how in practice

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

as i said it can differ for diferet muscle groups depending on what exercise is training them typically do in terms of resistance cave and so forth but i don't think that's a particularly compelling rational and i think ultimately with the range of motion stuff for example now or the parting motion stuff different muscle lengths and so forth we studied quite a few different muscle groups the finding is pretty consistent so you can make an argument based on the theoretical length tension relationship of a muscle because of structure and so forth fundamentally if we have studies looking at that muscle group we see more iprchbtlow muscle engh i think that mechanism of action that you're hypothesizing about that you don't even have that much good evidence m sort of establishing your mechanism we can forget about that until the sort of primary evidence the direct evidence on hypertrophy shows otherwise so that's my stumps

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

interesting yeah i wish that i had actually looked at paul's post right before coming on here so that i could speak a little bit to the exactly what he was talking about regarding the mechanisms but i know for sure that the two muscles he said that do not respond to stretch media hypertrophy are the biceps and the triceps of the arms and he actually used that overhead extension study as a proof of how that ices do not actually respond to stretched me hypertrophy despite i think the common perception of that study is that that proves that they do so if you're interested it might be worth going back and like checking out his post on

[milo_wolf]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

that and just seeing you know if he makes a compelling argument for it but i had cast on a couple of weeks ago and and he also i asked him the same question and he answered it similarly to you basically saying that there are certain must groups that respond more to it than others but that they all at some basic level will respond to stretch me yportrephy

[milo_wolf]:

yeah i agree i think that triceps

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

study is quite interesting right there are or a few things

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[milo_wolf]:

with it first of all the most absurd thing at first glance where the effect sizes the effect sizes were way larger than you think like they were you know

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

usually with range emotion reference my methanalysis reveal difference adferences of like zero two zero point three right usually in that study the effect is stated in the abstract was one point four which is huge right but then actually my doctor steele actually shout out once again looked at the stat and basically they used a different type of stecitistic but didn't clarify very well so the effect sizes were fine but the confusing thing about that study is that all three heads of the triceps

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep

[milo_wolf]:

grew more when only one of them is actually crossing the shoulder and thus influenced by shoulder position in terms of length is odd to be honest i'm more than willing to just put that down to a sort of type one air like a false positive i don't think there's anything more to it than that like with relatively

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

small sample studies you'll see tapeonairs fairly often it's not a big deal and because the broader field still points in the same direction i'm not too fast but i will say when i see people using that study is like oh you know long musclingsorce of room i'm like yeah there's a lot of other studies too and this one seems a bit in some ways so why not use other studies instead

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[milo_wolf]:

of

[bryan_boorstein]:

do you think that the position of the elbow whether being in the scapular plane or completely out to the side could impact whether the long head or media lateral heads would be receiving more stimulus

[milo_wolf]:

yeah so full disclosure by mechanics is not my strong suit so i couldn't tell you for

[bryan_boorstein]:

cool

[milo_wolf]:

sure that said

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

like it would make some sense i think differences might be too small to really matter all that much i think both would result in more stretch over all and long head one might result in a bit more stretch potentially

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

but then again that hasn't been studied directly again and i think the difference in stretch would be relatively minor and maybe

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

you're not that important grand steam of things but again bmihisisnot my strong suit

[bryan_boorstein]:

cool well that's really all i had errand do you have anything else to add there

[aaron_straker]:

yeah i will add just real quick because i want to be respective of your time so when i was listening to the conversation on the d d s podcast

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

with you i couldn't help but think around the debate that's been this long you know on going debate about whether the dead lift is actually a late exercise or not because of the part of the conversation around the length and disometrics and in you know a dead lift

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

the lad will be at a probably not not like a fully lengthened but you know maybe a mid range under high degrees of tension isometrically so thought it would be a great part

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

to ask what you think all right that with some of the new information

[milo_wolf]:

right so i think

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

i'm not sure how much tension there actually is on the lots in that

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[milo_wolf]:

exercise like i'm not true how much force would actually be required to keep the boar in that position right like it's not inherently the bar isn't going to swing forward i think if you didn't have any last strength like i've really seen for example this is anecdotal actually everything is an here from sort of assuming that there isn't much medical force

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

going on where there is and also this what i'm about to say now i haven't really ever seen someone delofplate train lots and all sudden improves you know like it's fairly rare i think almost always it's very rare that the dead lift is going to take your lots anyway close to failure or for your lot to be the limiting factor and so i'm skeptical that it would be good enough to cause any beyond very very untrained stages same with a sort of caves in the dead lift or in the squat sort of thing beyond the very untrained early stages i think i wouldn't count on that lift to grow your upper back save maybe your traps a little bit because again long muscle links fairly heavy isometric um m for your lads and like lower traps mid traps and so forth i wouldn't count on the lifts to grow your your stuff up there

[aaron_straker]:

fantastic i think you summarize that really well um

[milo_wolf]:

thank

[aaron_straker]:

that's

[milo_wolf]:

you

[aaron_straker]:

it for me brian for you anything else

[bryan_boorstein]:

no that's it man i really preciate your time and i guess let the listeners know where they can find you and all that good stuff

[aaron_straker]:

yeah plug all the stuff please mile

[milo_wolf]:

this is my favorite part of every podcast

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

i just come on to plug my stuff

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

you know

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

i'm just kidding so

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

you can find me on instagram at wolf coach that's my last name wolf and coach i'm not called wolf coach because i love wolves unfortunately although people often ask me why i'm called wolf coach i think people often think less of me because i'm called wolf coach because they think i'm some sort of widow but hey

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

wolf coach so instagram on you tube my lil wolf that's my full name research gate if you want to find my studies you know milo wolf and otherwise i have a website wolf coaching dot met where you can get coaching for me or if you want to find me on s b s throng by science i'm a coach for strong or science as well oh yeah by large those are your options

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

and erin's favorite animal was a wolf so i'm sure he's like super jealous of your last name right now

[aaron_straker]:

yeah when i saw when i came across wolf coach i was like mother

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

fuer why didn't i think of that

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

he got i got you man i got you

[aaron_straker]:

i know

[bryan_boorstein]:

uh

[milo_wolf]:

i'll start calling my my

[bryan_boorstein]:

uh

[milo_wolf]:

coaching

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

team the wolf pack

[aaron_straker]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

no

[aaron_straker]:

it makes perfect sense

[milo_wolf]:

thought about

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[milo_wolf]:

that and i was like am

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[milo_wolf]:

i really that guy

[bryan_boorstein]:

you need a sweet logo too like a wolf based logo you know

[milo_wolf]:

i do i do i'll get him it

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

ah

[bryan_boorstein]:

all righ well thanks for coming on and we really appreciate your time

[aaron_straker]:

yes

[milo_wolf]:

thanks for having

[aaron_straker]:

thank

[milo_wolf]:

a

[aaron_straker]:

you mile yeah

[milo_wolf]:

oh

Episode intro/life updates
Milo trains with Dr Steele as part of his study and focuses on small effects where possible
The difference between a movement that is overloaded and lengthened and one that is trained at long muscle lengths
Deifying failure at the short position vs. when you intentionally choose a weight that is too heavy to achieve full reps
What’s the difference in stimulus and fatigue between those two different approaches?
Why you shouldn’t ever go to failure when you're doing reverse upsets or linking super sets
Quantifying the Stim and fatigue cost of “tweener ” movements; such as lengthened isolations or mid-range compounds
Milo questions the rationale behind Paul Carter’s claim that not all muscles respond to stretch-meted hypertrophy