Eat Train Prosper

Kassem Hanson: Interpreting Muscle Length Research ⎮ ETP #79

August 02, 2022 Aaron Straker | Bryan Boorstein
Eat Train Prosper
Kassem Hanson: Interpreting Muscle Length Research ⎮ ETP #79
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

This week we have Kassem Hanson back on the podcast to graciously shine a light on the state of what the current literature suggests for training at short and long muscle lengths.

Kas covers variance in the degree of lengthened position in biarticular vs monoarticular muscles, theoretical and practical benefits for maximally training the lengthened position, and reasons you should also still train in the shortened position, and plausible roles of titin in the three-filament model on increasing mechanical tension.

Put on your thinking caps for this one. You’re going to need it. 🤓


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[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

what's up guys happy tuesday welcome back to another episode of eat train prosper today brian and myself are joined by cassim hanson if you've been listening to the podcast while back in i want to say late november we had cast them on the podcast for the first time today we are going to be talking around interpreting muscle length research if you are on with cassim i would implore you to go explore his instagram the instagrams of and one education and one training which are the i guess education and training arm of and one that cassim is the founder of just incredibly incredibly impact ful information around training things that brian and myself have gone deep down the rabbit hole is really kind of revolutionized how we've approached and looked at and understood training so a lot of really really cool and quality information from cast that i know i am very very fortunate to have i would say stumbled upon but brian put me on to it i did not stumble upon it so like i said we're going to be talking around interpreting the muscle length research which is something that we've talked about on the show before before we jump into all of that we're going to start brian

[bryan_boorstein]:

a

[aaron_straker]:

with some updates please

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah yeah i think our listeners should probably be pretty familiar with casson and one since we pretty much talk about them on every single episode that we do so so it's great to have you back cast and quick up date on me i'm now at the exactly the four week point since tearing my planter fatha on the day of the photo shoot and i'm beginning to walk normal i still can't quite go heel ball so there's still a little bit of compensation my left leg is still bumping as a result of compensating for the right i just can't seem to get away from doing ten or twelve thousand steps a day just chasing these little kids aroun d and h so that sucks i feel like i should be more healed now than i am but it is progressing along i've been biking a lot which i talked about on the last episode and i will continue to talk about here as we go forward and training is in two week four now for my new mess o progressing things into partials and then eventually some reverse drop sets which accentuates the length and position which is very specific to today's episode so all stuff that i'll expand on next week when we have a bit more time to go through up dates and i'll just kick it on over to cast for what's been going on with him here

[kassem]:

i'm on the that fun trip that you get when you take a couple of weeks off training and then you come back and you get all the fresh tombs again so i'm on the

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

the second the second half of that but

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

you know it's really interesting how the stuff that we talk about today is actually going to be like things that i utilized like first week back i cut back a little bit on some length and stuff and a little bit more shortened stuff and then second time through each muscle group then i progressed the volume and the in the length and stuff or whatever so i would say compared to what i would have done you know a decade of go even though it's like i'm significantly older coming back was not too bad right you know and i was actually doing nothing but basically waking up hiking eating hiking eating bed for like two weeks straight i was like i have no idea what my strength and stuff is going to be like coming back in right and my initial strength was absolutely tanked but i'd say i recovered maybe eighty per cent of it within the first the first session right so you know it's

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

always nice when you're like yeah you don't really lose it like don't lose it for real it's just like okay there's just going to be a small you know

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[kassem]:

resensitization or you know re acclamation period so that's where i am

[aaron_straker]:

for me i am officially back on the

[kassem]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

hypertrophy train i had

[kassem]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

two different cycles

[kassem]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

one was metabolic the previous one was nero and now i am finally into my second week of another hypertrophy phase which i am really really enjoying except for like the anxiety of top sets of hack squat sort of thing

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

which

[kassem]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

i went through today

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

but was happy to ogress i took a little trip it was my girl friend's birthday yesterday we went out into the middle of botley so we got out of the bubble of like the western hot spots we went up into the mountains which had these little micro climates and it was like really really cool to get out in the middle of nowhere um just in like the mountain jungle which was really really cool um intuitively eight for a couple o days which you know we kind of previously talked about before we started recording and things went really really well i had actually identical weights on the day that i left and then the day that a back which is more coincidence than you know my capabilities of estimating things but just goes to show that like you can really if you want to and if that is your priority for a trip keep things pretty tight with the travel so that was a lot of fun and didn't have any negative digesting versions or digestive versions with the food eating out which is always a massive win in my book other than that no no big updates for me just excited to be back excited to be back in th hypertrophy and excited

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

to get into this

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

conversation brian do ing to kick us off

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah yeah for sure so over over all the conversation as aaron said is basically going to be about the current state of research and the way that we look at training at short muscle length and long muscle lengths and maybe some discussion aroun whether movements are overloaded short or overloaded lengthened most of our listeners should probably be pretty familiar with these terms but i want to take it over to cast and just kind of get

[kassem]:

yes

[bryan_boorstein]:

his definitely or working definitions for today on short and long muscle langs and then the overload at each specific position

[kassem]:

yeah so with short and long muscle links i mean it literally is like just imagining like if you are to take the muscle out and you know stretch it or let it contract and so if we're working in an exercise where you know the joints are going to way where that muscle is getting as short as possible that's what we're talking about for short if we're looking at exercises where it's getting as much of a stretch as possible those would be our length and exercise so it is the actual what percentage of the muscles length or where within its total length are we working whereas overload is where within the range of motion and exercise something is hard so a good example of that is um if you are to do incline dumb bell curls where you're like using some shoulder extension that shoulder extension is basically lengthening the biceps a little bit more so ere going to a longer muscle length but because the dumb l is just using gravity like the bottom position actually isn't hard so you're not overloading that stretched position you're just happened to be going to more of a length but it's still you know going to be the mid to short position of that exercise that is actually the most challenging but if you were to say do that same position but have a cable that was pulling behind you now that exercise would both be in the line in position while also making that the hardest part of the exercise and there's

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

application to both of these things but a lot of times probably i would say like you know seventy five eighty percent of the time when you're using these things you're going to try and use them in conjunction a little bit like if you're going to do a short possession and exercise you're probably going to also make the resistance hard in that position to make it worth actually going there and same thing you know for the lengthened es you want to make sure that there's enough resistance that it was actually worth going to that stretch so even though these are technically different things one is length and one is you know the resistance you now challenge of where it's hard we tend to overlap them a lot you know when we're applying them to training

[bryan_boorstein]:

i think one example that might make sense to the listener to is looking at seated leg curl which trains the ham strings at a long muscle length but where the over it is like where that movement is hardest can depend on the machine or you can you know potentially be able to adjust that based on the machine that you might have access to like a prime machine or the one that i have at hoe so that resistance curve could be you know you're training a long muscle lengths but it's hardest in the short position and maybe there's almost no tension when you're at the long muscle length

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

and then alternatively it could be the complete posit where there's tons of tension at that stretch position and then it gets easier as as the muscle get shorter and you begin curling so that would kind of be one way that i think think about it makes sense for the listener strake or any thoughts there

[aaron_straker]:

no you guys cover that really straightforward and simple

[bryan_boorstein]:

sweet

[aaron_straker]:

for people to understand

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah cast

[aaron_straker]:

ye

[bryan_boorstein]:

what are by articular muscles

[kassem]:

spyarticular muscles are muscles that cross more than one joint um and this is really easy when you look at things like the biceps or the ham string where it's like okay they cross the you know they crossed the elbow and then cross the shoulder if we're talking about biceps that cross the knee and the hip if we're talking about you know the hamstrings it gets a little bit more complicated when we're talking about muscles say like now lots for instance it's like well they cross the shoulder joint but does the rib cage also count as a joint in there that they cross

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

to right and what about the scapula is that you know kind of a separate thing so really

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

i would say it's just like you have muscles that clearly only impact one joint and then you have muscles that impact multiple joints um and so there's a there's a different thing complexity for the nervous system when using o things and there's also you know for the topic today of talking about you know muscle length is if you can effect a muscles length with more than one joint that means you usually have an opportunity to change its length more meaning that you know compared to the breakyalis that just crosses the elbow joint you can change the relative length of the biceps more because you can move both the elbow and the shoulder to change those length right and so when we're looking at application of that that means that you know you just have to do be flexion elbow extension to fully lengthened and fully shortened their break o the breakyalis but for the biceps you might have to do two exercises one with a shorter shoulder position and well it a more lengthened position for the shoulder to be able to challenge the biceps through the full range of motion that you have available

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep um cool and so does it change that some muscles that are by articular or not have different are affected differently by stretched mediated hypertrophy like they may respond differently to that

[kassem]:

yeah well one of the big aspects of that is just going to be like the amount of the like anatomical sarco length that you use with those so it's not a clear thing of it's just like bararticular multi articular muscles always can get more of a stretch but i would say in general those have a greater like you use a

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

greater portion of that like total carcomrlengh if you're thinking of

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

like the length tension recur is is like the theories is that well in those type of muscles you're going to be able to basically use more of that whereas muscles

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

that don't like a lot of people they look at that link tension curve and they look at the drop off and they look at that huge passive tension and tom purvis actually has like a theoretical model on this of like well in real life like how much of that lengthened tension curve of the individual sarcamer do we actually use because we don't use the same thing that happens in a lab where they cut the sarcamir out and they stretch it and let it shorten you know in a lab isolation out it's not even a full you know muscle cell it's just a single sarcrmirr that they're basing that model off so it's very different compared to the carcamera length changes that we would see you know in a whole muscle and a real human you know that has joint constraints and what not so i think don't quote me on this but if i remember right with his models he's actually looking at like we're really only using about forty percent of that length

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

tension curve unlike these single joint muscles and maybe it's going up till you know like sixty seventy per cent max for some of these by articular muscles in terms of how much of that we would use and then there's a lot of things that go on where it's just like when we're looking at muscle contractions is that it's not nec sarily uniform meaning that like you know if you were to look at all of the sarcamers in my bicep as i was doing a curl there one that all the same length and two they wouldn't all necessarily be shortening or lengthening to the same degree which is you know a big proposed mechanism for regional hypertrophy you know as well as it's like okay well you know in certain certain s or what not like some sarcamers may be getting more passive tension than other sarcmers within within that same same muscle

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep

[aaron_straker]:

and

[bryan_boorstein]:

aaron

[aaron_straker]:

yeah i have a question and is that why i

[kassem]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

know in some some research like they will take i believe the term is cross sectional area of like maybe five different locations down like the quadracep and measure regional hypertrophy

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

and with what you were saying is that let's say theoretically why they would not have equal hypertrophy at each of those cross sectional areas in those reseat studies

[kassem]:

so when it comes to regional hypertrophy basically you have

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

two influences right you have one is going to be the activation of those different regions

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[kassem]:

right this is like all right you know are you able to actually

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

activate us and portion of that muscle a little bit more in one portion of the range relative to another right so the little tle stimulus across the muscle can be uneven and then the other thing would be like well okay what about a symmetry within the muscle right are certain regions of that muscle you know exposing themselves to a little bit more of that you know passive stretch and getting a little bit more stretched mediate hypertrophy and those two things aren't necessarily going to be totally separate right because obviously the influence of how short the carcomers are is you know because of the stimulus but there's also some there's also some passive structure fluent on there right like there's

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

given take like we're putting an impulse into that tissue that's saying hey shorten but then also the resistance in the passive structures are dictating will how much shortening occurs relative to how much you know resistance that particular series of sarcmirs has at that moment in time so it's this balance of you know what you're trying to signal in versus what you know resistance there is on that particular region of the tissue

[aaron_straker]:

oh

[kassem]:

and so we get

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

this you know non symmetrical will say stimulus and stress within in the muscle between that balance of what our you know what our nervous system is trying to do versus what's happening from the physics and the passive structures at any given range emotion

[aaron_straker]:

got it

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh um so just kind of generally

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

where do you see like the current state

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

of the literature research on muscle lengths we have maybe the top of my head i can think of like four or five studies but i'm sure that there's more that have looked into this at some level maybe not as the specific foe it's of the study but maybe it's like a tangential piece of it where some information was gathered but

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

how do you kind of see

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

the research currently and just kind of general over views on it and then we can take it from there

[kassem]:

well i'll start at this with one of the huge limitations and both of you guys haven't taken our course and actually looking at you know the actual full range of motion of some of these muscles as you immediately could they like well we don't actually have much research on true fully lengthened muscles like it just literally like there's there's not really any research on like the actual true end ranges in the fully stretched position so we

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

just you know some research on a little bit more stretched than others or whatever right you know so

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

like

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

if we're looking at the seated leg girl like i mean if interceded like you're getting the hamstrings pretty stretch but if we were really talking about stretching each of those individual heads of the hamstrings we would actually need slightly different hip positions right same thing for you know biceps and triceps and stuff so it's like just going into the sagital plane and then come up here you know like this is not necessarily the best way to put the stretch on the long head because we know it could actually get a little bit more direct stretch in the scapular plane so what we you have right is biased towards length and positions having a greater magnitude of hypertrophy when that volume and effort is like in a one to one scale right and i would

[bryan_boorstein]:

perfect

[kassem]:

say essentially if you look at everything that we have there's either showing that it's biased towards the length and position there was no difference but in a lot of those like there was no difference or it was a it was a statistically insignificant difference usually it's like well the actual lengthened exercise wasn't very lengthened right so you like in terms

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

of like like safe for instance like the leg extension study i mean that study really showed a lengthened bias but it still wasn't like because you just can't quite get a full stretch a leg extension because the machine literally just gets in the way right you can't get you know hamstring calf like squish like you could in the bottom of a pendulum squat rite or or a sissy squad or something like that um and that still shows that trend so we of the body of research we have it suggests that but you know some of the arguments against that you know would be it's like well we have these others things that don't and i would say not i wouldn't say like well okay this didn't show that the lengthened thing was better but i would also say i don't necessarily think that defunct it because the lengthened exercise wasn't really lengthened right so an example of that would be um

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

they did like kind of what they did in the la extension

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

but they did a preacher curl and they did like different ranges of motion in a preacher girl but a preacher girl is not anywhere close to a length and biceps so compare a lengthened partial and a preacher curl to a short and partial and a preacher girl isn't really giving us like that's not the context that we're looking at of like well what about if we were getting this

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

like more stretched media hypertrophy because you're not getting any of that length that you would at the shoulder so you know in that instance it might just not have gotten lengthened enough for the difference to be statistically

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

significant right so i guess if i kind of like wrapped this up as there definitely seems to be a bias in the research

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[kassem]:

towards

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

lengthened exercises

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

being better for her hypertrophy

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

in a like in a one to

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

one volume scale right but there is like also some stuff that just

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

isn't very contextual that shows that you know maybe

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

for some muscles it doesn't make us big of a difference once we start getting away from

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

that really stretched position so my interpretation is this basically

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

if i wrap this up is that i think that you know across the muscles lengthened exercises are probably going to be better for her pertrophy but how much better may differ from different muscles right meaning that not

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

not every like not every muscle is going to have the same magnitude increase in lengthened position you know compared to others because it's going to depend on for instance like is it a b articular muscle and what is its ever and we re linkin like how much stretch does it get and then because where humans limited to the logistics that we have in training it's also just well what is our

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

technical ability to actually go to those positions

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

and load them you know because when like when it comes to

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[kassem]:

like the quads and the ham

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

strings like we don't have the ability to load them like we do

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

things with the with the arm where we can go to like basically any plane of motion that we want work kind of stuck to like well what can i do in these like machines or hinge type movements or like extension like curl type movements um you know because we just don't have the ability to articulate our feet and hips and whole

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

weights like that right i guess if we still had like an opposable thumb on our foot maybe that would open

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

up some more lower by the hypertrepy option so

[bryan_boorstein]:

h

[kassem]:

who knows

[bryan_boorstein]:

m m and you had a question

[aaron_straker]:

i did and i thought it

[bryan_boorstein]:

or

[aaron_straker]:

would

[bryan_boorstein]:

no

[aaron_straker]:

be

[kassem]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

a really good example so you were using

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

the you briefly mentioned using like a preacher girl right and saying

[kassem]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

hey they use this in the study but it isn't preacher girl isn't actually a fully lengthened bicep and i thought just for the listeners it could be a really good explanation as to like why that isn't fully lengthened

[kassem]:

yeah yeah so because the biceps cross both the elbow joint and the shoulder joint right you could be in full elbow extension meaning like you're stretching the biceps as much around the elbow as you possibly can but if you're not also stretching them around the shoulder that means you aren't getting them near as stretched as you could if you are both doing elbow extension and shoulder extension like in the example we used at the beginning of the disc and which would be like a an incline curl or something where you're basically your shoulder is being pulled into extension and then you would also be doing so in that instance you're stretching the bicep around

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

two joints versus you're kind of shortening it the shoulder and lengthening at the elbow and a preacher curl so it's not going to be as much of a stretch

[aaron_straker]:

great thank you

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah so it's

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

interesting

[aaron_straker]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

looking at the hamstring study where i understand what you're saying where you didn't get it like fully lengthened because you know you need to manipulate hit positions for the different heads of the ham string but we can just a seated like girl is a lengthened hamstring

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

more or less like it's as close to lengthen as you're going to get there whereas the leg extension study and the bicep curl study what they essentially did was test overloading what is the length and portion of the movement but not necessarily taking the muscle to long muscle lengths and so they were comparing it like okay let's make this hardest at whatever the range of motion is that using at the bottom whereas the hamstring study didn't necessarily manipulate where the movement was hardest but it just was like hey we're going to train at long muscle lengths so so i just wanted to point that out and that was interesting and then the other interesting thing about the preacher curl study is that the bottom range of motion piece was done with a bar bell

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

um and or a easy bar or whatever end the top range of motion was done with a cable so they weren't exactly comparing one to one there the the bar bell or easy bar is inherently going to be harder at the bottom until um gravity allows you kind of get it past horizontal right whereas the cable is just kind of going to be harder based on the mechanical disadvantage that you have as the muscle get shorter is that a good way of sayin

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

it

[kassem]:

well i mean there's a few different studies so i just want to make sure we're talking about the same one so

[bryan_boorstein]:

okay

[kassem]:

the leg extension one um used partials right so but it was but

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

so it

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

wasn't a change in resistance profile it was basically the same resistance but did like a partial only versus a you know whatever whatever

[bryan_boorstein]:

well they went heavier i believe for the bottom range of

[kassem]:

well

[bryan_boorstein]:

motion

[kassem]:

it was

[bryan_boorstein]:

right

[kassem]:

he it should be standardized though too you could do it that right because basically they did they did they tested to see

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

what your ritmaxso the weight was equated to your strength at that position that makes sense right so

[bryan_boorstein]:

yes

[kassem]:

so

[bryan_boorstein]:

so inevitably you were going to use

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

more weight in the lengthened portion

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

of

[kassem]:

so

[bryan_boorstein]:

that rep

[kassem]:

so even though it's more like there was physical mass or whatever that they used on the machine in terms of the muscle channel it would have been like the same r p r r r r so that so that that standardized

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

right so essentially that would have ben accomplishing the same thing as if you were to say if we set up the leg extension

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

so that i would have been equally hard through the whole rap

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

if you would right now when it comes to the elbow flexion stuff the preacher curl there's there's two studies one like you said use the bar bell on the cable and then there's another one that i believe just use the barbel but they did like they did a mid range partial compared to a full range right um and then that one the full range did a little bit better so you can interpret that as like well full rams seem to be bit better or it's that well that one did include more of the stretch but

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

which as those things was more total rama

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

or more total stretch right but yeah and the one where you have the cable and the easy bar um i would say they're trying to accomplish the same thing in that leg extension meaning that they purposely made

[bryan_boorstein]:

s

[kassem]:

sure that the partial range that they were training in

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

was still being adequately loaded so again if they so if you were to have a preacher curl machine because like on the machines basically you can make it so that the resistance stays constant but when you have free wait like with a dumb bell like once the once your hand is over your elbow a dumb bell or a bar bell or easy but whatever it is is not it's no longer going to wig very much right whereas the cable once it's in line with

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

your arm isn't going to be so it's when it's perpendicular rum so i think i mean i don't know why i can't speculate why but my guest is that they chose to use those two things so that they could simulate the same resistance in those two different positions that makes sense right but

[bryan_boorstein]:

right

[kassem]:

but because they did they did the partial for the cable at the top and then they did the partial for the easy bar at the bottom right they basically were keeping the exercise where it was mostly loaded right so i would have been really it wouldn't have been very good to do an easy bar imagine imagine trying to effort equate

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

an easy bar curl where

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

you only did like the top quarter you just

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

have to have a tremendous amount

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

of load that you were basically

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

just like swinging back and forth

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[kassem]:

so who knows maybe that was like one of the decisions right plus then in that instance it would be

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

so heavy that if you accidentally went down just like an extra half of an inch should know blow up both of your biceps because you're trying to easy bar girl three hundred pounds and you can

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep

[kassem]:

really on the easy bar girl like thirty five pounds

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

so

[aaron_straker]:

ah

[kassem]:

um anyway just to clarify

[bryan_boorstein]:

gotcha

[kassem]:

kind of what those are so that if somebody has read any of those things that kind of know where we're coming from

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah so i think i was maybe thinking mostly of that cable verse the top position with the cable

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

versus the bottom position with the with the bar and then you said there was the other one where they just did a bar bell but they did a full

[kassem]:

they

[bryan_boorstein]:

range

[kassem]:

compared

[bryan_boorstein]:

of motion

[kassem]:

full range to like a mid range partial right

[bryan_boorstein]:

and

[kassem]:

in

[bryan_boorstein]:

the

[kassem]:

the

[bryan_boorstein]:

full range

[kassem]:

end

[bryan_boorstein]:

one

[kassem]:

in

[bryan_boorstein]:

because

[kassem]:

the full

[bryan_boorstein]:

it had

[kassem]:

the

[bryan_boorstein]:

the

[kassem]:

full

[bryan_boorstein]:

bottom

[kassem]:

range

[bryan_boorstein]:

position

[kassem]:

was

[bryan_boorstein]:

in it

[kassem]:

marginally better right so in both in

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

both of those elbow flexion studies there was a very very small like near and statistically insignificant bias towards the length and position but it was very very small but

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

again you're not

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

getting that length and so i don't know like in those exercises are they just barely

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

hitting the point where you would have gotten some

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[kassem]:

of those length and benefits right like you know just they're just barely touching and that's why the difference was you know so small

[bryan_boorstein]:

very interesting strike or any thoughts

[aaron_straker]:

one thing

[bryan_boorstein]:

my

[aaron_straker]:

i did think of it

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

was pretty funny is when

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

cast you were just talking about doing like the easy bar curl at just like the top portion of the shortened portion of the bar bicep reminded me of high school we would do these biceps call girls like the twenty ones where you would just do like the

[kassem]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

bottom seven like top seven and then like a full seven and it just reminded me of like yeah the top was like you were just going through the motions because he so

[kassem]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

s

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

my

[aaron_straker]:

and i had never no idea of

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

why and now like literally twenty

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

years later i'm like oh that's why because so i just thought

[kassem]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

it was pretty funny

[bryan_boorstein]:

they had the order wrong on that

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

sequence

[kassem]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

it's a lot

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[kassem]:

easier to move

[bryan_boorstein]:

m oh

[kassem]:

weights horizontally

[aaron_straker]:

a

[kassem]:

than it is to lift them vertically believe it or not right

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah okay cool well so as we've kind of covered you know a lot of the background people are probably pretty familiar with some of the studies that are out there on the links and the overload and stuff like that why you've kind of you've kind of touched on this already but maybe more succinctly like like what are the benefits of training at long muscle lengths

[kassem]:

so well i think i mean there's benefits from a well say an orthopedic and a neurological perspective of just having competency in all ranges of motion that you would use but when we're talking about hypertefiso and this is actually

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

this is an area where i feel like the terms don't help very much because passive tension is the thing that's technically or it's typically used is that okay as we're going into the stretch you're getting more passive tension um but i mean if you've been reading the research you know that comes after like the nineteen seventies um you know that like the the cross bridge model we have like the sliding filament theory where it's like okay acton and mileson are you know they're calling wrong and that's what you know creates the tension we now have the three filament are which is where titan is basically included in part of this process because now what we know is that titan isn't just a passive mechanism of just something that gets stretched just because we get it long but tit and actively participate so essentially you know if anybody knows how a contraction where is essentially you know your nerve sends a signal down and basically what happens is that you be we push calcium into the muscle tissue right and that's like the first that's going from the nervous system to the actual contractile tissue that's the first part of that contraction right and then that leads down to the cascade where you know we eventually you know we use a t p and whatever we do all the little cross bridge and crawling things but titan is actually calcium sensitive so that means as part of this like once you're engaging that calcium release s not just affecting the cross bridging of actin mysen but it's actually changing the rigidity or the elasticity of the titan molecule so that means that when you're actually act debating a tissue titan is becoming more tense and becoming part of the tension process earlier right at a shorter muscle length than if you were to be completely relaxed passively stretch it so there's an active component to titan so the way i'm kind of looking at this i don't know if anybody else you know will agree is i'm looking at is kind of like we have motor based tension um comes from like a miocene chain is called like you now it's a motor unit but like you have like a motor complex so i think like the motor tension is that's actually the cross fridging that's the that's the little heads of the acting sand just crawling along each other right like active falco so then what we have is we have non motor active tension which is basically

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

calcium affecting the protein folding of that tan which affects like basically

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

how much it's pulling and how stretchy or elastic it is and then we'd have completely passive and that would basically be well tighten and then whatever struck proteins are around there that are being that are now being stretched but there's no there's no biochemical influence so it's just whatever they have in the absence of being stimulated right so when we're doing resistance training we're never actually doing like purely passive like passive tension you know because like or you shouldn't be right like this should be an active process like you're doing in the centre you're doing a concentric right um but like you're actively controlling that load there's impulse going into that so it's getlike that muscles going to be in a state where yes there's calcium influx in there and so tight and it's going to be more stiff and providing more tension than it would in a completely passive environment so when we look at lengthened positions it's not just the passive that they get from the stretch right but it's also then likeitwhen we say all right we're activating this tissue now we're getting even exaggerate d i think that's why exercises that will say don't fit that like sarkemirmodel were like oh this should be getting passive tension or shouldn't be getting passive tension because people are looking at like altimasarcin length well because that's only in a passive state that they'd be seeing that passive tension curve when we applying the three filament model we see like well that titan molecule is becoming active way early right and that's essentially allowing us to

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

increase the amount of mechanical tension that we can get earlier as the muscle stretches right and so the benefits of the length and position coming around to this are that essentially both all of the non motor tension whether that be active or passive right not only has a greater capacity for total tension but it allows us to accumulate a higher volume of tension in the set because it's not a t p dependent so that means it's you're the more

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

you're getting into length and position the cheaper it is for you to create mechanical tention so that means as you're doing a set you can do more mechanical attention before you metabolically or know longer to able to create the motor based tension right so not only can you achieve a greater magnitude of tension with the non motor based and passive tension contribution of titan but you do so in a way

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

that isn't limited by the energy system in terms of you being able to recycle the a d p back to a t p continue the motor base portion of the contraction so when we're looking at mechanical tension being the main stimulus for hypertefi length nd positions probably allow us to accumulate a higher amount per rep and a greater amount per cent

[bryan_boorstein]:

it's really well said i feel like in my mind and this could be totally wrong but like when i'm in visioning is someone has like an accordion with like teeny

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

holes in it and as the accordion extends out that like your muscle lengthening and then all of these little things like the different molecules can get in through these teeny little porus

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

places in the accordion and then when it pushes back together that's like the contracted post and sort of and all of those molecules that you've gotten in there are like now creating all of this incredible pain through all the metablite build up and stuff like that and you're feeling it so i don't know if that makes

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

any sense but that's what i was thinking as you were talking

[kassem]:

i mean it's the

[bryan_boorstein]:

uh

[kassem]:

they refer

[bryan_boorstein]:

h

[kassem]:

to the titan molecule as just like an active spring now when they're kind of describing its

[bryan_boorstein]:

okay

[kassem]:

function right but it's a we'll say it's a chemical sensitive spring so you know a regular spring the more you stretch it the more it pulls right so it does increase its tensile strength

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

with stretch but then there's additional component of like well when this tissue is active it's like that it's like the equivalent of making that that spring like even more robust and having a greater tensile capacity

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

right so you have two influences both how much stretch but also how much activation on top of that m

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah so kind

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

of based on the way you describe

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

that like like my next question was going to be so what's more important training at long muscle lengths or training where that its hardest in the stretched position of the exerts but i kind of feel like listening to you talk about all that that may be the answer is just that there needs to be some tension at the stretched position it doesn't necessarily need to be the artist there but as long as it's not like a docile tension that where nothing is happening then then you should be fine um and then alternatively maybe you just don't necessarily want to make it hardest in the short position you're trying to specifically make that like a short overloaded movement but an even resistance curve training at long muscle lengths would theoretically be as effective as an even resistance curve where it's just slightly harder at the length and position does

[kassem]:

so

[bryan_boorstein]:

that make sense

[kassem]:

what you have to think of is is like as you stretch you're getting passive tension but the amount of passive tension is determined by how much load loading there is at that stretch o the two things are you know the they're part of the same equation they're multiplyers of each other right now if you look at if you look at this through the window of a single rep which is this is the law that i think a lot of people do there at things like to isolate like they're trying to

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

decide about an exercise based off a single sarcamer based on a single repetition and that's i mean that's not what we do right we don't pull our sarcamers

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

out train them one max you know maximum intention and then put them back in and then hope that they're well stimulated were you able to use multiple repetitions right so there's a there's a time part of this like volume that of tension that we're able

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

to accumulate so essentially it's like well if you're the more length you get well then the more of that passive non motor tension you're going to get but also the more load in that stretch than the more that you're going to get but if it's not maximumly loaded you're still because essentially you're not using as much energy in those stretched positions you're still going to accumulate some of that non motor tension your just going to do it across more reps than fewer reps so this is why in i may have said this in the last podcast or whatever it is that i think you just need to have a resistance profile that's good enough right you don't want it to be like absolutely

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

nothing right but it also doesn't have to be like well i'm goin t do a leg lengthened exercise it needs to be absolutely as hard as possible in the length and position right i think there's probably a point of diminishing returns of it being too much and there's a threshold where it's like this is enough now

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

because as i do raps i'm still going to still going to accumulate that and i would say a good way to kind of monitor this like you know because it will vary so much by individual you know all sorts of adaptations and your joint angles and insertion points so many factors going into this so what's the like how do i do thing is is really just look at where you fail right

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

as like you know if you're doing an extra s

[bryan_boorstein]:

yea

[kassem]:

and basically the last rep you go from being able to do a full rep and then just absolutely nothing well then the profile might be biassed a little too hard to the length and position right essentially what you kind of want is this that your last rep you can maybe like you can go from like doing like a slow full rep to then maybe grinding out half to three fourths of a rep right and that might be that might that might that might be that might mean that your profile is fairly balanced right but if you can't do

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

at least like a half or like a half of a rep then you might be on the like two lengthened side or whatever and this isn't a hard role this is just kind of a general thing if people like being able to know like okay you know for me am i being overleaped like overly neurotic about trying to really challenge us length of position to where it's like i was good i was good and then i suddenly got pinned because it's like well maybe you left a couple of raps on the table if you wouldn't had such an aggressive profile right

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

and then on the other end where it's like okay you know as i start to fail i actually only lose like you know a tenth of a rep and i can go and go and go and go well they are probably not loading to length

[bryan_boorstein]:

he

[kassem]:

and position very much and it's probably all in the short position you're able

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

to just keep doing those raps that are just like getting small like just dropping a few percentage points on total range emotion right so the sweet spot is probably you hit failure

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah yeah

[kassem]:

and you get you know half a wrapper a little bit more if you are to do that like one rap the minus one r i r if you will right

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

i literally just made a post on that this morning where i was saying use

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

your first partial rep to determine where the overload

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

has occurred in the movement so

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

that's cool that you co sign on that i feel like i could have said it better but

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

but no that's

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

really interesting and i also think it's rally nesting that you said that you should be able to get you know generally like fifty sixty seventy per cent range

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

emotion on that first partial because something like that it's very length and overloaded like you have

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

your pendulum or whatever like unless you're changing the way that you you're intent out of the bottom of the movement you know where you're now incorporating a doctors and gluts and all these different muscles you're probably not going to make it half way on the rep that you fail right whereas and same thing like similarly on the dual cable lateral rays like very lengthened overload profile you're going to go until your arm gets perpendicular to the cable which is gonna be twenty degrees or something like that it's not going to be a ton so those movements are inherently going to be much more lengthened overloaded

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

and then you look at something like a cable row or a dumb bell lateral rays and that's the example of you're losing five or ten per cent each rep

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

and you could probably do failure at ten and then hit ten more partials before there's nothing left

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

so ultimately we may want to just try to look to be somewhere in between those

[kassem]:

an

[bryan_boorstein]:

two dreams

[kassem]:

another thing you can do if that's too hard for you to figure out like if you're doing parcels would be like alight if you were going to do parcels if you can do like thirty of them it was probably not very hard in the length and position right but if you can on get like

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

i mean obviously the loading you know matters right but let's say like you're going to do like let's say brian you did a set of twelve um you know on on a pendulum or whatever right like i mean in general i tend that like not to use parcels and very lengthened biased exercises because like that's jus just like it's

[bryan_boorstein]:

of

[kassem]:

like

[bryan_boorstein]:

course

[kassem]:

you're

[bryan_boorstein]:

not

[kassem]:

partial

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

is like well i'm sitting at the bottom until somebody helps me get up that's that's that's how you do partials in a pendulum or bench press

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[kassem]:

like it just doesn't work um you know very well like maybe you get like one like like like for instance if you're doing a bench press you might get like that half a rep and then that that was it right then it's like okay maybe i could push it a few inches off my chest or whatever and then then it's just like the scream for help for somebody to come and rescue you type of thing so generally when we're doing lengthened biased exert is is it's not partials aren't something that i'm going to use very often um but if it is a safe condition like you're using cables or something like that right like you could do a cable press and then you could and partial there because you know f you get stuck at the bottom is no big deal you just let let the cable back right like there's

[bryan_boorstein]:

yes

[kassem]:

no imminent risk of needing dental work after you're set when you're when you're doing it that way so those instances you could be like well in a length and based exercise i'm probably only going a be able to get you know one two maybe three like little whatever partial reps right and they're going to be progressive ly wall or like a half rep and then maybe like a quarter rep and then like you know a tent through an eighth of a rep or something like that so

[bryan_boorstein]:

right

[kassem]:

it's another way of kind of looking at that is is like if you did you decide to do marshals shouldn't be able to do very many of them if it's truly length and bias

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah i wouldn't i actually put that in my post

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

today that i wouldn't recommend

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

doing you know

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

partials on a pendulum renard or a back squat because

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

essentially what happens is you do just get pinned at the bottom the cable presses a good option to but like i prefer if i'm going to do a past failure type thing on a length and overload movement i think like a rest pause

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

or a mio thing makes a lot more sense but more the point of post was to demonstrate that hey the movements that you should be doing partials on potentially are probably the ones where you can get most of the range of motion because they're so

[kassem]:

yep

[bryan_boorstein]:

short overloaded so we're definitely on all of the same pages there and i think that that transfers us pretty well into the next question of why train

[kassem]:

so we

[bryan_boorstein]:

short

[kassem]:

talked about how with the length and position you can get more tension per rep more tension per set and part of that happens because passive tension allows you just to simply create more tension but also that it doesn't require you to produce as much energy you like it's not as a t p dependent so training in the short position you are actually challenging the energy system more so that's why we use short positions more for metabolic phases because we're actually challenging our ability to you know continue to fuel the motor portion of that contraction more by biasing the range of motion to where it's more enter each demanding right so you have that aspect there that you're getting basically you're getting a stimulus that you might not be getting if you're doing the length and position right in the in the short position and it might be more of an a t p within that actual contractile fiber you know your ability to recycle that that's th that's the fatigue mechanism were in the length and position right not only we get calcium coming in when we stimulate a muscle but also as a muscle gets stretched it basically opens up pores for calcium to even flow in at a higher degree that's why like you know so basically if you're being passively stretched that's a way of actually getting some signal to that tighten molecule to tighten up even in the absence of activation so that you wouldn't just like all this and put all of that tension on the structural

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

tissues of the muscle and just you tear it in half so that leads to um like to an excitation coupling fatigue meaning like literally the ability for you to pull that calcium back out

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

of the tissue order back out of the star come right actually becomes a limiting factor for not only fatigue acutely but also like fatigue like long term until you get to the next session that's one of the reasons on top of you know damage and stuff like that of why lengthened exercises tend to you know potentially produce more dams you know and take longer to recover like you know full strength and what not and be ready to train again with shortened positions exercises we do push that metabolic demand right ere kind of training that t p system a little bit more but we're also not getting that neurological fatigue in the same way right we're not getting that fatigue through the calcium mechanism so it works well and that you're able to kind of ship the stimulus but also you're able to change your tolerance to like volume and frequency and stuff like that and you could say that like from a motor pad in perspective i might say it's like well short positions might be really good for like increasing like amplitude because you're

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

so focused on the active portion of the contraction right so they're i think doing short position exercises i mean both both are

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

important but i think training both of those is very good for orthopedic

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

because it kind of maintains your ability

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

to control that muscle throughout its full range of motion and you're likely getting

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

slightly neurological benefits from

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

each of those type of things meaning that like if you're going to do full wrong exercises

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

or so you're going to do dynamic exercises like you were going to do some cleans or snatches

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

or throw a ball or whatever right and all of a sudden like now you're going into extreme ranges and you're

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

using a combination of you know a lot of stretch mediated stuff in one position and then then like other stuff in there as you're just going to increase your tolerance to that changing environment of using stretch and then needing to be more active you know et cetera so i think from a injury prevention standpoint and a functional standpoint training both is good and

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

i think that if you're switching

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

goals that basically that short position offers you offer us an opportunity to use volume more as a driver then like because essentially

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

it's like well in a short physician exercise you may not get as much mechanical tension pere because you're not able to use the not able to use the passive part that gets you way more tension and also you might be limited by the energy system but you might be able to tolerate more sets and more frequency so this is where when we look at the research that's comparing short and long positions in to one to one it doesn't tell us well

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

what if eight sets of the short exercises compared to six sets of the lengthened exercise or what if by doing more short exercises i could train the muscle you know every you know four days instead of every six days whatever it may be it's like all right would i be able then to kind of balance

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

out that difference and hypertrophy stimulus because of my tolerance to volume changes

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

right so would i still be able to accomplish that right and i don't i don't there's there's nothing in the research to say either either way on that right now but i would say that in practice the

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

the ana anecdotes that i do have um i think that you know especially in beginners using that higher volume or higher frequency of short position exercises i think definitely produces

[bryan_boorstein]:

okay

[kassem]:

decent results

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

right but i think as you get a little bit more advanced that that energy

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

system may just be too much too much of a limiter right you eventually reach a point where it's like look i tried like adding volume and adding frequency to balance these things out and at a certain point

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

as you advance you just need more and that just becomes not a very efficient way of going about it right so it just like okay better to choose the option that maybe doesn't have a little bit less or as much volume and what not the other thing i will say is i think that our ability to adapt to the fatigue of each type of those stimulus are like so if you'll notice that if you start metabolic training you get much better really fast at that type of training right and then if you do lengthen based exercises you'll notice that like man they might really tear you up that first week but by just the second or third time that you do them the amount of soreness and how quickly you recover from them changes dramatically and to me that means that you know we are like we're adapting specific to that stress so maybe like if you're as you're doing lengthened exercises increase your capacity to re balance that calcium whether that's

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

like creating more calum pumps whether that's just like improving the energy system to be able to feel those things or whatever

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

so there's

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

probably like you know up place where it's like

[bryan_boorstein]:

yes

[kassem]:

okay neither one periodization then becomes your tool because you reach to a point where i's like okay i'm recovering from this really well i got the sweet spot and then i've gotten that stimulus you know for a while and then it's like okay if i go do the other thing i kind of slightly de train myself from that other stress for a little bit i'll expose

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

myself to a new stimulus and then and then jump back and then

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

in that instance it might be like well okay i'm going to be sore a little bit of whatever but in the process of that is that consequence actually then driving up my adaptations for that so you guys know that i'm always interest in potentiation right like how can i use this week's training to make the next phases or the next is better and i think when you use both of these things is that you're you're kind of potentiating that um and i know i'm kind of rambling here but part of being able to rebalance calcium is dependent on the mitacond its ability to both absorb calcium but also to produce a t p to fuel those pumps and what not so maybe in a way directly training the medaploxsystem potentiates the ability for your tolerance to like how much recovery you could jack up those length and position exercises right and so and vice versa right so like if you're really really good you know re

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

balancing calcium and restoring

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

the nervous system

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

then that might increase your talerance to volume of short exercises that you can do also it's like i think both of these things you know as you as you evolve become better uh maybe i'll try this i don't i don't know how most of your listeners

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

are visual the youtube probably right but the way i

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

kind of look at it is imagine like you have two stimulus is that are overlapping no they're not they're they're not they're mostly they're that visual they're mostly

[bryan_boorstein]:

no

[kassem]:

listening

[bryan_boorstein]:

they're

[kassem]:

okay

[bryan_boorstein]:

mostly

[kassem]:

well

[bryan_boorstein]:

listening

[kassem]:

this won't work

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

then right but essentially the visual that i was

[bryan_boorstein]:

uh

[kassem]:

going to give is that

[bryan_boorstein]:

uh oh

[kassem]:

as you advance in training it essentially like these two stimuluses they get they overlap less and they get further and further apart from each other so that and your your need to kind of periodize back and forth becomes better because if i switch to one stimulus right not only am i able to push that a little harder but because i'm reloading the other one the other one basically kind of it kind of kind of moves back to

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

easier train ability if you will like to it's like okay now i don't have to do i don't have to keep pushing that to as an extreme level so if i do a metabolic face for a couple o weeks that means the progressions that i was needing to make to get pro so like in the hypertrepy phase

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

might take a couple steps back so i can get more

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

out of less for a little bit as

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

well right and and and he and the vice versa right so as you

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

advance i think utilizing both methods and isolation it's very beneficial whereas if you're a beginner you know you just do something and it's likely metabolically challenging and also stressful from a calcium level at at the same time and as you advance it becomes

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

like well one of those things is like going to start bottle necking the other and you're not going to be able to drive as much stimulus in either direction unless you kind of start specializing your training a bit okay long ramble there sorry

[bryan_boorstein]:

so

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah i know that was great so

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

then does that mean that if you're trying to keep these stimuli separate that may be you i was thinking you were on the side of know sixty ish sixty five seventy per

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

cent of movements in hypertrofepase being more lengthened overloaded and then you know thirty to forty per cent being short would you even c more to lengthen so that you de train

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

a little bit from the shore and then vice

[kassem]:

well

[bryan_boorstein]:

versa

[kassem]:

let's

[bryan_boorstein]:

when you're doing

[kassem]:

like let's

[bryan_boorstein]:

the

[kassem]:

say

[bryan_boorstein]:

alternative

[kassem]:

that like my threshold for a metabolic phase

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

is like you know i'm

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

doing you know eight to ten sets in the in the short position right and then i switch to her pert phase and i'm three sets of four sets right that likely is not now enough to not prevent like i mean it might slow the detraining effect of that a little bit

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[kassem]:

but it's not enough to maintain it so

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

if i'm going to do six eight ten weeks of this pertrophymeso right that's allowing me to maintain the like the neurological competency in those positions it's a way of me being able to add maybe a little bit more volume that i otherwise wouldn't be able to because of the increase fatigue um but it's not enough

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

to prevent me from also detraining a little bit from that right like like let's let's look at this for instance imagine you know imagine that you run up you know six minute mile it so and like you've trained trained yourself or whatever seven minutemile something

[bryan_boorstein]:

fast

[kassem]:

more relatable whatever

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

right you run a seven minute mile that's that's that's where

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

you're at okay now

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

you could look at this as both an intensity or volume thing right but if you take whatever training that it took you to be able to run that seven minute mile right and then all of a sudden you're like well i'm going to start running you know twelve minute miles right i'm just going to go at a jogging pace right or i'm going to run three and a half minute half miles or something like that either or if you do that for eight weeks you won't still be able to run the seven minute mile it might decrease how you know how much your pace would drop off like from week to week because you're still like doing a little bit of it right but if you if you back that off for ten weeks you're not i'm going to maintain

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

that same level of performance right fortunately for herpertrophy we tend to maintain contractile tissue but

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

in terms of like our actual performance and our response to the stress and what not those things those things back off if if we pull back the petal like at all right you know so and you could look at that as strength too like

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

you know if you're one r m is whatever so you're one r m in bench presses you know four hundred pounds if you all of a sudden just start like you know only doing singles with three seventy five you know if you do that for ten weeks odds are that your one on em is going to be closer to three seventy five if you don't ever i mean that's a it's basically reversing progressive overload right you regret it regressive

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

underload or i think that's a thing that

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

some people say is a joke or whatever right but that's

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

that's essentially what you're doing because you're like reversing the principle of progressive overload and that's going to be enough to get some reentitization or some training in that other stimulus it doesn't have to be do zero

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

because there is no such thing right like there's no way to keep training and for to be zero metabolic stimulus right and zero mechanical stress like we're just we're just moving the scale on to continue them a little bit oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm interesting

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

um so do yu hae any

[aaron_straker]:

i

[bryan_boorstein]:

thoughts

[aaron_straker]:

do

[bryan_boorstein]:

erin

[kassem]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

i mean

[bryan_boorstein]:

before i continue

[aaron_straker]:

the biggest

[bryan_boorstein]:

here real

[aaron_straker]:

thing

[bryan_boorstein]:

quick

[aaron_straker]:

that i kind of was picking

[kassem]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

up or the way that my brain was thinking mostly from what i do mostly like being a nutrition coach is leveraging more of the shortened positions and more metabolic style phasing with clients who are transitioning into a lory deficit to really get things moving or if we are in one and we are maybe having some like glucose sensitivity issues or something like that by training these systems by really trying to cut a large hole in the get to get more you know glycagendepleting

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

or even so like a glycogendepletion type

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

thing if someone needs

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

to make a weight for something like that quickly those were just kind of some of the thoughts or where my mind was initially going for where i will have the most practical use case with my client

[kassem]:

yeah absolutely the short position you know because of that metabolic demand is going to give you

[aaron_straker]:

ah

[kassem]:

the i mean we call it we call it like you know we'll call it an m p q phase or a nutrient partitioning phase right that you're you're gonna see eptations that correlate with that stress right so that means that you're going to hold more glut force and hold more of those gluteflour proteins the things that actually you know respond to insolent and pull glucose in in the cell membrane at all times you're also gonna have a higher amount of them than there you're gonna have more endzims to create glikogen so that you can you can make more all of that and you're on have mitocondrial adaptations in there as well to be able to reply is that fuel and you basically become like two things happen you know when we're doing this metabolic training is that your body gets more carp stingy and increases carps orage right in terms of glucose right so it's like it's trying to it's trying to find two strategies to increase its savings account for glucose one is to take up more and the other is to increase its capacity to use fat for uel so that it needs to dip into that account less so ou know from a from a conditioning perspective or a body composition perspective those are extremely favorable adaptations you know and then you add on top of that the benefit of like well you can use a little bit more volume and a little bit more training frequency which is going to get you you know a little bit more you know just overall energy you know burned without the same soreness you know covery things right so like one of the things that we do is like you know whether it's fat loss or pert

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

whatever like you have somebody coming in from the beginning and it's like man if we can make people better at storing carobs and utilizing fat that's going to make their journey better and if they're new to training if i can give them a program that isn't just going to kick them in their metaphorical nuts like with like just retarded levels of dom right away and it's actually going to be like stuff that actually makes them feel more full and more pumped or whatever it's like that's a huge psychological benefit is it's like hey there's a lot more reward and a lot less pain than i wise could have experienced if i was like okay it's first program or whatever what are we doing while we're doing hell elevated possquats right you know so you're not going t be able to walk for nine days you know

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

when it's like oh no we're going to do like like extensions with like you know shortened overload or pause at the top or something like that and it's like cool especially like um like i look at the way we do like and like the iormsisis like that's the way to reverse engineer the physiology that's causing people to be skinny fat right which is like the they're nutrient partitioning away from muscle and it's like we won so to switch over and the visual change that

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

you can get in those people just simply because we're increasing the hydration of that muscle tissue can be extremely motivating in the same way that like if you have somebody like cut their carbo hydrates at the beginning of a diet that initial weight lost can be like oh wow okay now i'm bought in i'm motivated you can use these metabolic training silis the same way that like oh man i could just my muscles they just feel uller throughout the week you know i can see them i can feel the pump you know and it's not like i'm not so sore it's not like okay in order to do that like i couldn't now do my daily activities for like the next three days without like you know like or fearing having to go to the bathroom because i don't want to sit on the toilet

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

like pain right so i mean there's so many there's so many reasons to use this stuff outside of like hey which one makes me bigger faster bro right that just ultimately to a person's success

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah yep no that's super well said

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

and then

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

you mentioned just to close the short position thing you mentioned driving volume

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

as a good a good reason

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

to use these movements and so practically for a listener i think the way to conception as that would be something like a specialization phase where maybe you have one or two muscle groups that you really want to drive volume for but ship we'll use the gluts because you were just on with with bret and so if you want to if you want to do a glut priority phase you can't you can only squat dead lift and lunch so many days a week without just constantly being sore so doing things like like banded work

[kassem]:

ah

[bryan_boorstein]:

that overloads the short position and thrusts and bridges and um and things like that may have more applicability in a face where you're trying to train the gluts five times a week instead of twice a week as

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

part of

[kassem]:

and

[bryan_boorstein]:

a

[kassem]:

this is where

[bryan_boorstein]:

really

[kassem]:

i think

[bryan_boorstein]:

well rounded

[kassem]:

like there's

[bryan_boorstein]:

program

[kassem]:

that like it's important to look at that threshold right because it's like um now we'll put it this way if you can do it five days a week what does that likely mean for the stimulus that you're getting each one of each one of those times or is there a point of diminishing returns like

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

i would say probably that that number probably exists somewhere around three times per week right meaning that you know for looking at what would actually produce the best results if you can do it more than three four definitely for sure max that means like you're probably per session stimulus is suffering too much now right so it's like okay your volume is now too inefficient

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

so i think there's going to be a sweet spot you know where it's like if you just do all linked exercises or whatever you might only be able to hit something once every seven to ten days right you know if you're doing a lot volume right so okay you split that up and you can maybe do it two times a week you maybe take some of that stuff and you add it a little bit

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

more short based exercises now maybe you can tell that three times you know per week right you start abandoning most of the length and stuff and doing a tremendous amount of low efficient exercises is announced like oh yeah every day is glue day right and that usually puts people into a place where it's like okay you know maybe i mean maybe you're still making progress but it's a very inefficient in terms of like how much time it's taking you to get that progress but also you know are you actually getting as much progress over

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

that time as you as you can right because it's like all right you know i mean if you can get

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep

[kassem]:

same result in three hours a week versus five to six hours a week i would say well probably the three hours a week would be would be the more time efficient right especially

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

if you

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

actually seeing a point of diminishing

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

returns when you

[bryan_boorstein]:

yet

[kassem]:

get to like that you know over four to five hours a week of training for that body part right then it's like okay i'm actually getting less out of more time right so that's the caveat that i would throw on there as there's just a point of diminishing returns with applying that principle right and same thing for the other direction right like if you get to the point where you can only train something

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep

[kassem]:

once every year ten days because you're just annihilating it that is probably not a very efficient approach either right because you're probably leaving a lot of stimulus on the table if you're limited to such a low frequency oh yeah i'm good

[bryan_boorstein]:

are you cool

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

for another fifteen minutes or so

[kassem]:

yes oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

all right there's a question that i absolutely have to ask because i've received

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

more d ms over the last two weeks of people sending me paul carter's messages are posts about muscles not responding to long muscle lengths and so the way just to frame this up for listeners essentially there's this guy chester coco he's got a ph d he posts pretty polarizing stuff on on his instagram and he's super hard on the length and band wagon like he basically i've seen him write things along the lines of like paul carter is just an overgrown gorilla who knows nothing like all muscles respond to to to

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

stretch media hypertrepe et cetera and then paul has been

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

coming out with all these statements and posts recently that the biceps and triceps specifically do not respond advantageously to stretch me hypertrophy i think his most recent statement was that there their equal that you can do length and overload movements but they're no better than the short version for those muscles and then obviously brett tried to manufacture an argument that the gluts also respond better to short overloaded movement so what are your thoughts on the whole what muscles respond better to lengthen versus short and is there anything to what paul

[kassem]:

okay

[bryan_boorstein]:

is saying about

[kassem]:

so

[bryan_boorstein]:

the biceps and

[kassem]:

if

[bryan_boorstein]:

triceps

[kassem]:

you think back

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

when we were talking about you know motor versus non motor tension right so that three filament

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

model lets us see that we are getting non motor base tension pretty early in the lengthening of a sarcamerright like you know pretty early and even if you look at like like the chart that brett put up or whatever his little he's got this passive tension line in this active tension line you see that the active tension line starts climbing like fairly early right i mean it's not a lot but it's climbing very early and that's that's completely passive so that's not including what we would getting so in essence if we understand that you know by working in the length and position even if we're getting the same amount of total tension like in a rep that we're actually able to accumulate a little bit more volume of that tension because it's not as a t p dependent than i would say like i think my position is that i think all muscles are going to benefit

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

on from perte perspective from being a little bit more lengthened bias simply because you can accumulate that volume of tension little cumulated a little bit easier but not every muscle will have the same magnitude of difference right so for some it may make a huge difference and for some it might be a small difference so if i'm going to try and steal man paul's argument or whatever which is basically looking at the sarcemir length and saying hey and these muscles you know because of the length of those sarcamers that they're not getting us much a tension as other muscles right that might have a different sarcermir length that you know throughout their range of motion then i could be like yeah so it might be it might be a thing that like all right compared to the quads the biceps don't see as big of a magnitude improvement but i still think basically if you that properly and you actually get a decent stretch that all of those muscles are going to slightly favor that it's just some are going make less of a difference than others i think there's going to be that discrepancy but if we could you know

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

we could look at at the grandeur level we could say like well i think all muscles are going to have stretched mediated responses like it wouldn't it wouldn't make sense that we would have muscles in the body that just don't have that mechanism like it just doesn't happen in them because it would it would actually restrict the types of adaptations that those tissues could have and what not and then you know there is just some there is just some flaws in looking at that single sarcemir model and then trying to apply that to well a whole muscle in real life training and part of that is that well in a muscle the sarcamers don't necessarily symmetrically contract across the entire muscle length right so that means that we could actually be getting some sarcemers to a greater stretch right than what you would otherwise think on average because some would be shortening a little bit more and some would be getting a little bit more relative length but on average as you lengthen to muscle more of them are going to be closer to the stretch and as you shorten it more of them are gonna be closer to shorten but that doesn't mean that it's this like linear shortening and lengthening process across the whole muscle so with that and then the regional differences and stuff like that i'm pretty confident in saying i think stretch media hypertrophy or non motor based you know contribution to the stimulus is going apply to every tissue but the magnitude is going to be different so like most things the answer is kind of somewhere in the middle of what both of those

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

people are saying it's not just like hey if you just do lengthened exercises then you just get way way better results in everything it's going to make more of a difference in some tissues than other right and then there's the whole thing is like well in the things that it's not making as much difference can we make up for that with just you know volume or putting a training a relatively higher degree of effort or whatever it is just like because you need like for mechanical tension that stimulus is it's a volume that dependent on both magnitude and time right so that means that we can use more sets like that's just like that's that's the thing so that's where then you know i think part paul's argument is like well because lengthened exercises are more fatiguing

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

he's like well if they're

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

the same i wouldn't do the lengthened one because he's looking at them is more fatiguing but my argument would be that the fatigue is going to proportion to the amount of benefit because if you're not if you can't stretch it as much well then you're not getting as much stretch

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

meted fatigue right so the stretch made fatigue is going to be proportionate to the stretch mediated stimulus benefit so i don't necessarily follow that argument of like well i wouldn't avoid this just because they're gonna they're going be more fatiguing one because i think it's just gonna be proportionate like the benefit and the pros and the cons are going to be proportionate in that instance and i all i think that we're probably able to adapt better than most people think to that type of stress to then be able to tolerate that you know like throughout a mess and then we talk about the bret one you know where he was looking at the

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

gluts um so

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

it's funny because bret

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[kassem]:

like you know he he called

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

to authority all of these people and i reached out to pretty much everybody and i don't think there's anybody in the industry that looks at that single sarcrymodel and then says well that means we should train exercises like that like there's nothing in the race it's to support that that that would correlate to her purthrope really well um you know and the other thing is is that like he left the total tension off of the chart in that in that and that that argument right and he said that like maximum tension was at the active peak and it wasn't like he goes to a hundred and twenty degrees and actually at that hundred or twenty degree marker the total mechanical tension surpassed the active portion so in that little chart that he showed it actually shows that the stretch position would be a little bit higher magnitude of mechanical tension than his active and cut it off out a hundred and twenty degrees

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

and

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

you know now i've made comments on what what what i think about you know certain people's research in the way they present things sometimes and and this is one of those reasons why and i'm like why cut it off at a hundred and twenty degree when i mean we can bring i can pull up footage of every single person doing the leg press at our practicals right and people are getting one forty one fifty n sub case like a hundred and sixty degrees of hit flexion meaning that that curve of mechanical tension would have continued to

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

go up right and significantly significantly slow right so was leaving

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

that total tension curve like off of there by design was cutting it off at a hundred and

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

twenty degrees design because if you did those two things it's a lot easier to kind of like hey look at this big thing over here and don't actually pay attention to the numbers or or what not and that's

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

you know that that's one of my pet paves is like

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

if it's kind of like presenting evidence are data in a very very very very skewed way that can be a little bit misleading so i mean it's already a big leap to take the mechanics of a single sarcamir and then try and apply that to whole muscle and exercise selection let alone when you purposely restrict the range emotion and don't look at the total tension within that single sacra mirror are all the nuances of ho what would go on there so essentially what i'm getting at is i don't i have not found any anybody else that believes that that is that looking at that view is like valid way of saying well these exercises are going to be better

[bryan_boorstein]:

ye

[kassem]:

my stance is still trained both i think there's there's value in both of those things but i don't think that the gluts are going

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

to somehow be a muscle that is different than every their muscle in the body that gets more hypertrophy stimulus and a short position than its lengthened position right yeah just don't buy

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

that at all and i don't think anybody else does either

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

i mean dude you invented an exercise that's actually more short biased than the one that he created

[kassem]:

no

[bryan_boorstein]:

so like you clearly

[kassem]:

ye

[bryan_boorstein]:

don't have a problem with training at the short position you just have

[kassem]:

and

[bryan_boorstein]:

like

[kassem]:

i

[bryan_boorstein]:

a

[kassem]:

honestly

[bryan_boorstein]:

more maybe

[kassem]:

like i

[bryan_boorstein]:

politically

[kassem]:

say you

[bryan_boorstein]:

moderate

[kassem]:

know like

[bryan_boorstein]:

view

[kassem]:

hey

[bryan_boorstein]:

of

[kassem]:

like

[bryan_boorstein]:

the

[kassem]:

this

[bryan_boorstein]:

whole thing

[kassem]:

exercise this like top

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

you know isolation of the bridge or whatever were working like i'm like people love that exercise because of all the things that come with metabolic training right and feel it well it gets them a good pump you know they can do a lot of it or

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

whatever like you know people they just love like they squeeze their but you know so like a certain demograph just absolutely loves that but time in again

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

i'm like look this

[bryan_boorstein]:

yep

[kassem]:

is like this is the icing on the cake

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

you know or the cherry on top like this

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

is not going to be the main driver of your glut growth i think one thing that can be confusing to a lot of people is because those exercises give you like this this perpetual pump right that last is they can think like while i'm using those exercises i'm getting more hyperthephy just because on average that too he was staying a little fuller right unto like okay when they stopped doing that you know like okay well maybe the hydration in that tissue drops like you know a little bit and like oh no like i stopped doing this and now i'm

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

no longer growing and i'm like well no it's just it's just a slightly different adaptation

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

right especially if you combine that with like oh well i'm training gluts five times a week and i'm doing these exercises that increase hydration to the muscle right well i'm just constantly pumping my gluts rights like the equivalent of like you know doing push ups and curls before you go out on the date right that might make you that might make your slaves a little tighter you know for the night out but i mean that's not going to sally contribute to growth over over time right so you know when we're looking at these exercises i think it's important to be like hey this is a tool it can be using this way but on't think it should be attied to like this tool is better than all other tools you know because it was my idea or whatever right you know and i would i don't you know i don't even want to say that i invented that ou know the cast glut bridge or whatever like you know i taught it that way you know my entire life because i saw that was where there was value this over a traditional hip thrust type movement right so yeah like

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

you said if brett's argument is is like well there it's like well why didn't he just start doing it the way i do it like you know

[bryan_boorstein]:

a

[kassem]:

ten years ago instead of you know instead of being so

[bryan_boorstein]:

uh

[kassem]:

attached to the thrust i don't understand

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

the

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

one thing that

[bryan_boorstein]:

draker

[aaron_straker]:

i kind of thought that that could be kind of relevant here so when you were describing the model that was kind of capped at a hundred and twenty degrees i believe

[kassem]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

you

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

said it was was it a leg press that the model was based off of or was it

[kassem]:

it

[aaron_straker]:

not

[kassem]:

wasn't based off of an exercise that was literally just it was just it's based off a skeleton model that basically they just basically it's like you're you're asking the software to look at what the length would be and it's just it's just an est it you know

[aaron_straker]:

understood

[kassem]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

okay so with that

[kassem]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

would you say based on and i'm not trying to load this in any way or anything like that that for a majority of let's say like buy articular right muscles that we can train at the largest range of motion that you can safely attain and that's going to have so very person to person that mechanical tension because of some of the things that you've been saying with the and i want to say non

[kassem]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

active motor right we can create a higher amount of mechanical tension earlier with the largest ranges of motion or sorry

[kassem]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

and the shortened

[kassem]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

the deepest into the short lengthened position

[kassem]:

our potential for the non motor tension is higher than what our cross bridges are like when we look at it right that's why you know when you look when you look at these length tension models and you see like the

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

the total tension curve you'll always see the one that's including the passive tension come up and surpass the active tension portion of that right is the potential the potential is just greater and with the us understanding that that's that filament is active it lets us understand that like okay well that is actually being a part of the you now the tension component even earlier in the stress shortening cycle than what would have thought if we model it off of just pure passive tension

[aaron_straker]:

great thank you ye

[bryan_boorstein]:

i have one more question hopefully it should be short but there's a lot of questions recently floating around about exercise sequencing and a lot of people questioning me putting a lot of short overload movements prior to my my lengthened version like you know leg extensions before pendulum or able costal press before like a dumb bell chest variation or something along those lines a hypertrophy phase because i think it would probably change in metabolic phase or maybe there wouldn't even be a lengthened component as much in the metabolic phase but but for like a hypertrophy or mechanical tension stage of training why would we want to put the short overload movement first and we can for the moment take

[kassem]:

well if we're

[bryan_boorstein]:

complexity

[kassem]:

looking at

[bryan_boorstein]:

considerations

[kassem]:

the total

[bryan_boorstein]:

out of it

[kassem]:

amount of mechanical tension that you're stimulating over the course of

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

the whole session right if we do the short position first so the short position exercise is going to be less fatiguing right in terms of the nervous system so that means that your force production is not going to drop off throughout the work out as fast if you do the short position first and then you do the length and so the idea is that while including the short position first and then the length and the total for the total mac tecaltension stimulus across the session would be a little bit higher because the thing that really would drop your force production fatigue you're doing more towards the end right now eh there probably is a point of diminishing returns if you're doing too much volume of the short stuff before the length and stuff right because it's you basically want to maintain a certain level of performance going into that exercise that has a higher one to one mechanical tension you know perspective right um these things probably work themselves out on volume tolerance meaning that if you did a little bit too much in the short position what's going to happen is that you're going to fatigue a little earlier in your length and position exercise and you're not going to be able to do as many sets are what not right and so you can kind of use that as your your guide this is that like all right you know if you're doing your short position stuff and you're seeing a dramatic drop in your performance and your lengthened exercise or you're saying that you're tolerance volume that exercises is dropping then maybe the solution is to you know cut a set off of the short position or lower your r r or something so that you have a little bit more there if that's your priority right and then the inverse would be true for like a metabolic face right um now if you flip those things right you do the length and stuff first and then you did this shortened stuff afterwards right you would obviously have the greatest performance in your lengthened exercise that way but would the performance drop in your short stuff then be like so severe that the net total for the whole thing you know was less right and so typically

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

i do the same order as you do you know i do my short stuff first and then and then and then i do my length and stuff but that that comes in the cave then if i'm really focused on lose length and bias movements i'm not pushing to a ton of fatigue or a ton of volume in those short position movements and if i want to include more of them that's where i kind of do like the sandwich method where it's like all right i'll do a little bit of short you know at the beginning and then i'll do my length and stuff while i still have very little fatigue and get good performance and then i take it in a little more short on the end for the extra volume that it won't be fatiguing but also accepting that there's going to be some performance lost but it's not in my priority movement oh yeah so then so then

[bryan_boorstein]:

and you can push

[kassem]:

so

[bryan_boorstein]:

harder

[kassem]:

then you

[bryan_boorstein]:

on

[kassem]:

can

[bryan_boorstein]:

the

[kassem]:

you

[bryan_boorstein]:

short

[kassem]:

can

[bryan_boorstein]:

stuff

[kassem]:

bury

[bryan_boorstein]:

the

[kassem]:

that

[bryan_boorstein]:

second

[kassem]:

stuff

[bryan_boorstein]:

time through

[kassem]:

into failure or what not right so

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

for instance like if i'm doing leg extension in hack squat if i'm going to push the leg extension like like to failure it's going to come after the hack quat right because i look at that as like i'm actually you know i'm putting a decent amount of fatigue into that so you know i don't think people need to be too up tight about these rules i think what they should do is just look at what is the priority thing that i want to do and what makes sense to get the most performance out of that right if it pens to be a situation where you can do some short stuff and basically maintain ou know relatively the same performance awesome if

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

you find that doesn't work that way then i would be like well then just do the short stuff at the end if you get a little bit you know if you lose a few raps on the short stuff it wasn't the priority for what you were trying to accomplish that right so you can have basically lower quality volume that you can just add is needed at the end if you got your highest quality volume already done and taken care of so i don't think people should be over i don't think people should be too obsessed with trying to create a rule around this as much as looking at like an exercise basis right so for instance you know you said we're gonna leave complexity

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

out of it but that is a factor right like if you're gonna do a squat it's a lot easier to do a squat fresh than having some having some pref fatigue in there right but some persons might say hey if i do two sets of leg extensions my squad just then feels so much better and i can you know my mind mental connection with my quads and whatever and i'm like cool that's fine too right you do six sex six sets of la extension and then you come in and now your squat mechanics are all fucked you know and it's limiting your output or whatever that's

[bryan_boorstein]:

u

[kassem]:

a totally

[bryan_boorstein]:

h

[kassem]:

totally different story

[bryan_boorstein]:

h

[kassem]:

right

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah i said

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

leave complexity out of it cause

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

i was going to ask about complexity

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

next but i think you kind of answered that i was more thinking about like you know it takes an advance train to execute an r d l properly and safely and even more so to do it

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

under the conditions of hey i already fried my my legs on leg curls prior or hip extensions or something along those lines so

[kassem]:

hm

[bryan_boorstein]:

i definitely think that complexity is for sure a consideration as it would be in like a free weight back squat but i just wanted more like kind of that grand

[kassem]:

yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

over view of

[kassem]:

and

[bryan_boorstein]:

the

[kassem]:

and

[bryan_boorstein]:

mechanistics

[kassem]:

again i still don't think it should

[bryan_boorstein]:

mechanism

[kassem]:

be a rule

[bryan_boorstein]:

is behind

[kassem]:

because

[bryan_boorstein]:

it

[kassem]:

i

[bryan_boorstein]:

so

[kassem]:

mean as

[bryan_boorstein]:

i think

[kassem]:

coaches

[bryan_boorstein]:

that was perfect

[kassem]:

sometimes you're choosing an exercise order for load management right so it might be like look i want somebody to do arles but i want to decrease the loading

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

that they're used to de load the back so then if i do leg curls

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

first they can do r d l's and even though i mean maybe it's a little bit more of a technical challenge maybe it's not maybe their mind muscle connection and their control is a little bit better you know depending on lunch i do but now maybe they need twenty five per cent less weight on their spine

[bryan_boorstein]:

and the weights

[kassem]:

and we're

[bryan_boorstein]:

lighter

[kassem]:

still

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[kassem]:

adding volume to the ham strings and

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[kassem]:

the gluts you know by being able to do those so like when it comes to this man you know coaching is all about trying to come up with the solutions for the individual and if you're coaching yourself that's the same thing right as have priorities have goals and then try and move the pieces around the basically a you to accomplish those goals as efficiently as possible because a lot of times when you're splitting these physiological hairs they're so context to dependent that as soon as you change and exercise or change a little bit of volume or whatever that like all right things are now fluctuating you know so you just want to be you just want to be like hey if i can make sure that i dial in the priority then you know i'm being as efficient as i possibly can in the most important thing you know and if i lose a few percentage points on the other things there it's likely not going to make that much of a difference right and as you advance like these things become a lot more intuitive like i'm sure you guys have done programs where like from the first to the last exercise it just like kind of flowed like you just felt like you you hit everything at the right time and performed it well and then i'm sure people also written programs where it's like okay i did this other thing and then when i went to this

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

the second exercise or whatever it's like i just felt like absolute ship like i had nothing to give it or whatever it and usually that happens it's like okay there's probably a better way to distribute either these exercises or the volume or what not or maybe that's just not a good that's not good exercise

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

good complimentary exercise selection whatever and it's like okay cool then then you can work those pieces out right i mean so your personal performance based around your priority should be probably the main goal that you focus on when it comes down to these nuances where it's it could go either way right problem solver that's what i look at coaches for

[bryan_boorstein]:

that's awesome dude that's all i

[kassem]:

no

[bryan_boorstein]:

got for you man you

[aaron_straker]:

no

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

i say no and then i

[bryan_boorstein]:

aaron

[aaron_straker]:

start talking

[bryan_boorstein]:

you

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

an to jump in with anything

[aaron_straker]:

really it's you hit the nail on the head there for me like

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

i

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

biggest challenge for me of my training career is always

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

ben my quads and just like they just lagged behind everything except for maybe my calf but like fun all i'm really doing there i always had to

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

stack leg extensions in shortened pos and before any kind of hack squat leg press whatever just so that i could

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

get a good stimulus in them

[kassem]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

and only in the last like four or five maybe six months have i actually been able to like create a very solid connection with my quads now on like hack squat pendulum sort of thing and now it goes first because i'm able to perform that movement much better for the it's i want to be freshest so that i can get the most lengthened you know um position out of them and then my leg extension like okay you know i just mashed myself

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

to damn failure

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

on on hack squats i'm going to go get my additional shortened overload volume on the leg extension

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

but that's like cherry on top stuff but

[kassem]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

for a long time i needed that first now i'm like proficient at performing this so i can put it in that secondary position

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

so it may over your

[kassem]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

training career whatever flow in and out of positions

[bryan_boorstein]:

interesting

[aaron_straker]:

as well

[kassem]:

yeah there's so many variables right even even just like the exercise selection that you have a available right so i have the prime leg extension which allows me to really bias the short position so if i

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[kassem]:

do like if i do hacks

[aaron_straker]:

yeah

[kassem]:

and then do that

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

because the resistance profile is so different my performance in those leg extensions tends to be it tends not to drop off that much right in fact i just did four hundred pounds on that select rise leg extension

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[kassem]:

after hacks for like like the first like the first time rights like it's the first time where so i put i put it on

[bryan_boorstein]:

was

[kassem]:

i

[bryan_boorstein]:

that

[kassem]:

put it

[bryan_boorstein]:

short

[kassem]:

on the floor right so it's it's basically

[bryan_boorstein]:

is it short

[kassem]:

it's

[bryan_boorstein]:

overload today

[kassem]:

the

[bryan_boorstein]:

he

[kassem]:

peak of the resistance s just before lock out if you will right on that yeah but so but that was after that was after

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

all of my sets of hack right and i was able to do that but if i had a leg extension that i wasn't able to bias that profile it would have been a lot harder to maintain that performance in that second exercise so for me i may have more flexibility with how i use the two things than somebody that just has you know either they can't you know control the resistance profile in there a squat or or ter leg extension right you know so then it's like well i have to do them in this order or i just have significantly greater performance loss

[bryan_boorstein]:

hm

[kassem]:

a okay

[bryan_boorstein]:

awesome dude that's a that's all i got

[kassem]:

no

[bryan_boorstein]:

man

[kassem]:

i mean

[bryan_boorstein]:

you got anything

[kassem]:

summary

[bryan_boorstein]:

else to

[kassem]:

guys

[bryan_boorstein]:

add on

[kassem]:

is

[bryan_boorstein]:

the conversation

[kassem]:

like look you know the main principles will always be there right you know enough volume

[aaron_straker]:

oh

[kassem]:

add enough effort right and a lot of this stuff will work it out because you'll realize that you can tolerate more volume with certain exercises than than others and that's likely you know acommodatig for some of the physiological stuff right but i think least lengthen by stuff if you're looking at efficiency is a more efficient way of driving hepertrophy but if the only option you have is a short position exercise you don't have to like you know cry and think you're not going to make you know any gains right as long as you have

[aaron_straker]:

oh

[kassem]:

the other principles in place right yeah

[bryan_boorstein]:

and use all the tools because different seasons

[kassem]:

h

[bryan_boorstein]:

of life

[kassem]:

m

[bryan_boorstein]:

different phases of training

[kassem]:

cool

[bryan_boorstein]:

require

[aaron_straker]:

fantastic

[bryan_boorstein]:

different tools

[aaron_straker]:

so

[bryan_boorstein]:

to be used

[aaron_straker]:

to wrap this one up cast can you plug yourself where the listeners

[bryan_boorstein]:

all right

[aaron_straker]:

can find more from you all of the one stuff and will obviously put all of that in the show

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

notes as well

[kassem]:

yeah you can find me on instagram it's just coach underscore cast and then are you know our education is this dot education and training were also on youtubemasnone education um and then if you really really are interested in this stuff like both of these guys can attest to this we're in colorado we have an h q where we do all of our research and we teach this stuff hands on and i really don't think there's a better way to learn about this stuff then like being able to physically see it and go through it and what not and you know all the research in the world won't won't affect you as much as like actual hands on

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[kassem]:

experience with this stuff so you know we'd love to see you there if you guys want to make the trip

[aaron_straker]:

i

[kassem]:

ye

[aaron_straker]:

will

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

yeah i mean it's there's i already want to

[bryan_boorstein]:

i

[aaron_straker]:

come

[bryan_boorstein]:

attest

[aaron_straker]:

back and

[bryan_boorstein]:

it

[kassem]:

oh

[bryan_boorstein]:

was

[aaron_straker]:

it's

[bryan_boorstein]:

awesome

[aaron_straker]:

like i don't know the next time i'll be in

[kassem]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

the states for for a considerable amount of time to line up with one but i'm still like working through the mob mechanics of course it's just so so much content i watched it every day on the t on the tread mill as i'm like at the jam warming up and cooling down

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

but one thing that's cool is like now because when i was there is a lot of like drinking from a fir host but now i'm like hearing it for like the third fourth time and i'm like i understand it now you know where before i was just like

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

as everyone is as confused as i am sort of thing

[kassem]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

so

[kassem]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

it is one of those things that i'm like i just continue to

[bryan_boorstein]:

uh

[aaron_straker]:

appreciate it more

[bryan_boorstein]:

h

[aaron_straker]:

i'm having like

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

amazing training sessions now just though that i can look at things i made a post the other day when i was on that that trip i worked out in like a very limited hotel gym when i was able to put together a fantastic work out because of the things that i

[bryan_boorstein]:

yes

[aaron_straker]:

learned the prac i was like okay

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

well i'm going to super set this like shortened overload bicep with a lengthened overload

[bryan_boorstein]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

and just like being able to pair things and having that understanding just allows me to be so much more effective my own training and then what i help with my clients and stuff it's just nowlodgeis power and one thing that i feel very confident saying is like in it is like you your generation or population of

[kassem]:

ye

[aaron_straker]:

like your lifting population the amount of knowledge of

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

the actual muscle groups and stuff that we are training i would say across the board i generally do not like to speak in absolutes is still quite poor which is kind of wild and it's been something it was fifteen years fifteen sixteen years before i actually started learning around like mechanics of training in these sorts of things and i've learned more in the last eighteen months than i did in twelve years of training prior in and one in case you've been massive as part of that and brian too as well as well

[bryan_boorstein]:

oh

[aaron_straker]:

cool

[bryan_boorstein]:

ah

[aaron_straker]:

alright

[kassem]:

hm

[aaron_straker]:

guys

[bryan_boorstein]:

yeah

[aaron_straker]:

brian and i will talk to

[kassem]:

m

[aaron_straker]:

you

[bryan_boorstein]:

cool

[aaron_straker]:

next week

[bryan_boorstein]:

well thanks again dude appreciate it oh

Episode intro/life updates
Defining short and long muscle lengths
Bi-articular muscles are muscles that cross more than one joint
Regional hypertrophy has two influences: What you can activate and the portion of that muscle
lengthened biases in the current research
humans are limited to the logistics that we have in training, it's also what is our technical ability to actually go to those hypertrophy positions?
hypertension from an orthopaedic and a neurological perspective is having competency in all ranges of motion
Why do we use short positions more for metabolic phases
being able to rebalance calcium is dependent on the metaconid its ability to absorb calcium and produce a t p to fuel those pumps
What is an m p q phase or a nutrient partitioning phase?
3 hours a week at max would be more time efficient and progressive than overextension or low volume
In response to Paul Carter’s research - all muscles are going to have stretched-mediated responses
Why in a hypertrophy or mechanical tension stage of training - put the short overload movement first?
Your personal performance based on your priority should be the main goal